tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post5813257285911525876..comments2024-02-22T02:15:01.912-08:00Comments on The Narcissistic Continuum: How Psychologists Failed Our Family: Did You Try Getting Help for your Kids?CZBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-75819388394892325122015-04-15T07:20:01.309-07:002015-04-15T07:20:01.309-07:00Yeah, that is the part of the comment I was referr...Yeah, that is the part of the comment I was referring to. <br />I am curious too of NPD/BPD two sides of the same coin. When you say Ns can appear to be arrogant but also clingy and dependent. There were times my mother was like this. I am trying to understand decompensation and let me know if I misuse it. There were times when my mother would start crying and saying "You hurt us, do you know what you have done." It happened without sense to me (as it didn't follow an argument) and I was so confused b/c I kept thinking that I was causing the distress in my mother. The doubt was in my own behaviors when I was living at home. I kept thinking that every action was going to create harm and hurt someone. Then, she had rage, the rage was such a contrast to her crying I can see why I have had to work on so much doubt before I could change my own behaviors. That is such a great question, I wasn't sure what was happening when she was crying and seemed hurt. I don't know if she ever pleaded for my help, it was more that I wasn't helping the situation by how I was behaving. And that she was struggling and I didn't really understand the depths of her suffering. Any help never helped. <br /><br />I can imagine how the uncertainty caught you off-guard. It did for me. It really is believable (and it could be real) that I can see how it lures one in. And then I wanted to help and tried to help in other ways (do more stuff around the house). Your whole last paragraph I can relate to. I think as children or as an adult, we scrambled to find ways to build the relationship and then a 180 happens and it hits us from behind. It is crazy making. I can relate to much of what you say about your ex. <br />Hugs,<br />TRTRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532757489135750861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-20665419298380380952015-04-15T06:41:16.131-07:002015-04-15T06:41:16.131-07:00Your first paragraph reminded me of a saying that ...Your first paragraph reminded me of a saying that my IL's and some friends use - "Happy Wife, Happy Life". Ugh, when asked for clarification, it boiled done to a mother's feelings are the most important in maintaining harmony in the family. <br /><br />I think I also started to have a skewed view of mothers. I don't think it went too far b/c I saw other mothers (friends' mothers) not behave like my mother. Sometimes, it was deceiving - mine mother was more overt while others covert. Today, I see a mother's kindness and have met more 'normal' people which didn't go too far (mothers on the blogosphere) :)<br /><br />I can understand the discomfort, not everyone is comfortable talking about the body and its changes. Empathetic mothers who still find it uncomfortable are able to take a stance of health and hygiene. That was a terrifying experience to think you are pregnant after only sleeping! Oh man.TRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532757489135750861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-76184658129196808522015-04-03T14:31:34.236-07:002015-04-03T14:31:34.236-07:00"The cognitive dissonance between the arrogan..."The cognitive dissonance between the arrogant grandiose narcissist with the out-of-control raging borderline makes us DOUBT ourselves. I think this can be summed up in people's stories about "seeing the narcissist's fragile, wounded inner child." "<br /><br />Is this the comment you're referring to, TR? I haven't explored this idea before. It popped up in my reply to you and it deserves further exploration. My father is quite narcissistic but he's an overt narcissist and doesn't "decompensate" to a BPD fragility. Maybe he isn't pathological, that could be since he has mellowed as he's aged. <br /><br />I've read many references to the "inner fragile core" of a narcissist and this is what made me think of BPD. Plus, there are new articles about NPD and BPD being two sides of the same coin which peaks my curiosity. I need to dig into this literature and see how psychologists are understanding this. <br /><br />Narcissists can appear to be arrogant but also clingy and dependent. We've described this as "decompensation" on our blogs and forums---when ego defenses break down. I don't know if there's a more reliable clinical explanation and can't yet comment further about the NPD/BPD connection. I would appreciate anyone's input on that, including links to articles about the NPD/BPD connection. <br /><br />What I can talk about is our reaction to the "fragile and wounded inner child". I don't think narcissists are pretending. I believe they're truly suffering when they plead for people's help. The problem is that we interpret their behavior as "humility" and "remorse" but humility and remorse lead to changed behavior---not increased defenses, resentment and aggression! So what ARE we seeing when they appear to be fragile? Good question!<br /><br />My father's arrogance never left me uncertain about his arrogance, if you get my drift. My ex's arrogance was coupled with uncertainty and neediness which caught me off-guard and drew me closer. It caused me great uncertainty and doubt because I believed that deep down inside, he wanted to be helped. It's like the "lure" of the borderline beckoning us closer and yet intimacy feels threatening so we're pushed away. You start to lose faith in your ability to "know" someone, your ability to discern and make appropriate judgments! I can only imagine how confusing (and entrapping) this must be for a child!<br /><br />Hugs,<br />CZCZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-29821618006410047232015-04-03T14:08:09.312-07:002015-04-03T14:08:09.312-07:00I don't suppose a narcissistic mother would ev...I don't suppose a narcissistic mother would ever say her discomfort was less important than her child's welfare. Well, in truth--she might say something like that but she wouldn't act in accord with her words. It's obvious to me that narcissistic mothers put themselves first, protect their egos first...and i don't think they realize what they're doing! It's part of the Parentification-Theory, suggesting narcissistic parents expect/demand their children take care of them. ACoNs learn to put Mom or Dad's "feelings" ahead of their own because if Mom-and-Dad aren't happy, ain't nobody happy!<br /><br />I had never thought about "body changes" in context of narcissistic parenting but you're right. Educating our children about those changes is a parental responsibility that usually makes us "uncomfortable" to some degree. Rather than working through our discomfort or even expressing feelings to the child, the narcissistic parent abdicates his/her responsibility and lets the child suffer the consequences. There's a serious lack of empathy for a daughter when she isn't informed about physical maturation. I'm really sorry you felt humiliated by your "ignorance" which was not your fault and should have been prioritized by your mother (or another adult female).<br /><br />It reminds me of one of my friends whose mother was (imo) narcissistic. She had never been told about sex and wasn't clear about how that whole thing took place (this was in the 60's, long before pornography educated our kids YIKES). anyway, she fell asleep in her boyfriend's car and was terrified she might get pregnant. I remember thinking at the time, "Didn't your mother tell you that sleeping together was completely different than having SEX?" I think empathic mothers can imagine how their daughter would feel and would do anything to save her the humiliation of not understanding the basics of maturation and sex. <br /><br />I will share with you also that my daughter's therapist has reminded her many times, that what my daughter thinks is "normal" for mothers, isn't always. Evidently, pathological mothering is being discussed in therapeutic circles which is important I think. It would be awful if daughters of narcissistic mothers believed all women/mothers were equally heartless and critical. It also means my daughter gives me giant hugs and kisses after every therapy session. ;-)<br /><br /><br />CZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-41981570998890805142015-03-29T15:29:06.275-07:002015-03-29T15:29:06.275-07:00I was really surprised with my therapist's com...I was really surprised with my therapist's comment about borderline, for I hadn't mentioned narcissism or any psychology term to her. I am curious to read more about it and am grateful you listed some resources. I find what you wrote in this comment about DOUBT with an NPD/BPD parent is insightful and I want to explore. I think sometimes I feel a lot of doubt about what I'm feeling. That I question stuff a lot. I don't know if it is normal or not or narcissistic or mean. I can see so much of it in my thoughts and even how I communicate with others.<br /><br />I appreciate your thoughts on the gift giving, b/c it was shocking. Understanding how they view gift giving helps, I agree. It is a quid pro quo mentality attached. You are right "As long as my expectations are in sync with the narcissist's deficits, we are both served well." That is something I recently learned (practiced) is that if our needs our aligned then we are both served. I've had to practice this more and more. I think what really hindered me was I avoiding understanding what my own boundaries are/were when it comes to any social interactions. I still struggle and it is a learning process. I think knowing this has helped change how I interact and react to the situation.<br /><br />I enjoy our discussions, I always look at recovery with new eyes after it. <br /><br />Hugs, TR TRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532757489135750861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-72153424526991068832015-03-29T15:12:15.319-07:002015-03-29T15:12:15.319-07:00Hi CZ,
My apology for a late reply. I came down w...Hi CZ,<br />My apology for a late reply. I came down with a really bad cold and then a bout of depression followed. <br /><br />"In other words. my discomfort was-and-is, less important than my children's overall well-being." That is EXACTLY it. I don't know of mothers (okay, really my mother) who behave with this value in mind. That is what effective parenting is about. There are times when stuff comes up in parenting that creates discomfort, triggers uncomfortable emotions but the welfare of the child comes first. Even today (understanding how generational this is) some mothers (friends) don't feel comfortable talking to their children about what is happening with their bodies as they change. I can understand that to a certain extent (and maybe I need to stretch my empathy here b/c of my own bad experiences) when I went through puberty I was really alone and I had no idea what was happening. I went through puberty literally the semester before the 'sex' education class and had some really humiliating experiences in school from it. It was someone else who took me to the store and got me a bra and it was someone else who went to my mother and said "your daughter has trouble seeing, I think she needs glasses" (it wasn't a teacher). All of this came at a price with other girls making fun of me in gym class and I didn't understand it. I'm not writing this for sympathy, only to illustrate how completely NON narcissistic approach to parenting you have. It is a comfort to know and see that empathetic parenting happens. <br /><br />I'll make a mother comment regarding my mother.<br /><br />xxTRTRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532757489135750861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-84640095889633291842015-03-11T02:49:05.068-07:002015-03-11T02:49:05.068-07:00I wish I could highlight sentences in your comment...I wish I could highlight sentences in your comments, CZ, and in those of others here. The highlighter pen messes up the computer screen though ;-)<br /><br />I'd like to expand on one of your thoughts: <br /><br />"deep and permanent healing relies on making connections to other people. This spiritual/emotional connection to another human being (or group) is essential to healing..." <br /><br />Wow, there's a lot here. This approach rightly takes the focus away from the person with NPD/BPD, and puts it on improving the *health* of the other. I suspect many of us who got involved with NPD/BPDers need practice in healthy relationships - being selective, developing appropriate boundaries, trusting ourselves, etc. Good groups can help us with these skills in many ways. Once one has experienced good communication, one is no longer tempted by "junk food" relationships (dramatic but no real substance).<br /><br />Focusing on the individual with BPD/NPD is a no-win path. Yeah, we've got to bitch and tell our war stories. That's part of the healing process. But one doesn't want to get stuck there - there's no future in it. Those individuals can never be the people that we dreamed them to be. They are sad and weak and probably won't get much better. We need to accept that, let them go and move on. <br /><br />We, on the other hand, have hopeful futures. We can learn to have very good relationships (better than "normal" people in my opinion). We have experienced the dark side of relationships, and have become deeper and more nuanced as a result. Contradictions in human behavior don't phase us. <br /><br />Groups are ideal because they are more natural than one-on-one relationships with therapists. We're going to spend the rest of our lives in groups, so we might as well get good at it. <br /><br />Just the experience of being around a healthy group is healing. I noticed this in the sustainability groups I've been involved with. We avoid talking about deep personal problems (we're not set up for that), but just being accepted and having good conversations makes a difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-57994613874125689232015-03-10T10:19:00.546-07:002015-03-10T10:19:00.546-07:00"Even after being involved in a BPD/NPD relat..."Even after being involved in a BPD/NPD relationship, I think things could be a lot simpler than they are now. Most of us don't need heavy duty counseling. Support groups (perhaps with a trained facilitator or therapist) would be more appropriate. Cheaper and more fun, too!"<br /><br />Hi Bart! I wanted to comment on your comment because it took me by surprise at the time. I have always been drawn to support groups as an integral part of healing---whether it was support for mental illness, for people who've moved a lot, for family members dealing with addictions, etc. etc. etc. So setting up an online forum was a natural fit and the most important qualifier for running a group is "attunement". At least in my style of managing a forum. Credentials are great, research articles are important, trained therapists are valuable; however, however, and however: deep and permanent healing relies on making connections to other people. This spiritual/emotional connection to another human being (or group) is essential to healing the trauma most people have experienced because of a pathological relationship. If the forum/group is too dry, if there are no juices en-living people and reassuring them of their love-ability, well---people might as well be sitting in a lecture hall listening to Otto Kernberg. Lectures never heal anyone. Connections do. <br /><br />I am currently writing a new post about this topic after listening to short-sighted commentary about the DANGERS of online groups. ha! It's so easy to scare scared people, isn't it?<br /><br />So thanks for mentioning the VITAL importance of support groups.<br /><br />Hugs,<br />CZCZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-57370320499910014922015-03-10T10:02:19.534-07:002015-03-10T10:02:19.534-07:00It's interesting to me that your therapist has...It's interesting to me that your therapist has connected BPD with NPD (seeing both disorders in the same person). I think this is very very important for people like ourselves. We see the arrogance and fantasy of the NPD; at other times, we see needy BPD behaviors. If we stick to an either/or diagnosis, we miss a deeper understanding of our own, and other people's experience. The cognitive dissonance between the arrogant grandiose narcissist with the out-of-control raging borderline makes us DOUBT ourselves. I think this can be summed up in people's stories about "seeing the narcissist's fragile, wounded inner child." Maybe this is another avenue we should explore---how the NPD/BPD parent/person leads to greater self-doubt in family members. Why we might cling to the idea that there's a nice person really deep, deep down inside and we can coax them out of hiding if we ourselves become less-threatening. Yea. This way of thinking is dangerous. <br /><br />One last thought about your mother 'trying to change' and this may sound a bit jaded. It's not. I am able to maintain a few narcissistic relationships that are important to me (for numerous reasons) but that's only because I understand narcissistic deficits. One of those deficits is the ability to "give" without manipulation. When a gift is given, it's done "in the spirit of getting" and that is that and there's no alternative interpretation that will serve the relationship well. As long as my expectations are in sync with the narcissist's deficits, we are both served well. And maybe I'm just too nice (been told that 100's of times since taking my heart online), but if that's the best a N can do at that point, then Yaya. Maybe if they behave the way they "should" enough times, they may come to realize the value of mutuality. As long as "we" recognize they are making an effort without building castles-in-the-sky, the relationship can be sustainable. <br /><br />Love to you and some hugs, too!<br />CZCZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-59943136777284031632015-03-10T10:01:43.341-07:002015-03-10T10:01:43.341-07:00Hello dear TR. Your comments are always rich with ...Hello dear TR. Your comments are always rich with insight and appreciation for mutual collaboration...just wanted to say that. :-) It's a natural tendency to look back on our past behavior and criticize ourselves. We see the flaws, the errors, the stupid thinking, the 'naiveté'. If we're writing about how dumb we were and clueless (chumps), an anonymous friend somewhere will reply, "Hindsight is always 20/20" and thank God they snap us out of a dangerous process pathologizing ourselves. Looking for our strengths, the courageous things we did that invited outside criticism and even blame, restores our self-confidence. It stops the self-blaming. Insisting my children and our family needed therapy was yes, a very courageous thing to do. Maybe not so much today now that therapy has replaced (to a large degree) religious counseling. Perhaps my naiveté was a strength too because it never occurred to me that my spouse might feel threatened by our family's "imperfection." I try to go back and re-member my feelings at the time. What I remember is thinking about the social costs of admitting our family needed help and it was a "fleeting consciousness" compared to the compelling drive to do the right thing for our kids. In other words. my discomfort was-and-is, less important than my children's overall well-being. <br /><br />My daughter is in therapy at this time and her experience has been very different from the early nineties when "pathology" wasn't even mentioned or perhaps understood by individual counselors. I sense that there's greater focus on the family system and how individuals react-to/engage-in the system. This removes the need to pinpoint the "blame" potentially trapping individuals in victimization; or the compulsion to diagnose non-pathological family members with 'disorders' when in fact, it's the system.<br /><br />I know that last statement to be true because of the remarkable changes in people's lives when they learn about/separate from the narcissistic family member. It's like they're suddenly freed from self-blame, self-loathing, from the destructive impact of narcissistic deception and manipulation. The growth can be phenomenal if family members are able to trust other people, to see other people as sources of comfort--not pain. (I will write more about that in my next blog post, perhaps next week). <br /><br />(comment continued)<br />CZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-4226269286485572522015-03-10T02:47:53.942-07:002015-03-10T02:47:53.942-07:00Hi CZ,
I think it was very progressive and insight...Hi CZ,<br />I think it was very progressive and insightful and courageous to get help for your family. That is not an easy thing to do even today. I think we still tend to cling to the belief of handling problems on our own.<br /><br />I agree with many statements above about the evolution and inherent flaws of psychology (human error). Much progress as been made on family therapy yet, as a person reading about it now and going to therapy, I feel there is a disconnect in what happens 'inside' an intact dysfunctional family and the therapeutic help received. I am grateful for you sharing Childress's information for I'm going to read further and watch the videos. <br />As I read your story I gained more clarity in my own experiences. My therapist had pointed out to me that my mother could also be borderline and from what I read here about the NPD/BPD combination (and in the other post) this is accurate in what happened to my father. He was blamed and criticized and during my childhood I sided with my mother (even though I cried after my interactions with her). Today, I feel I have a different outlook on the family (due to reading about family systems here and in books) and have maybe come to a clearer understanding on the dynamics between my parents. My mother puts on the 'victim' and 'savior' role, she can play two hats very well. Even so when I shared my holiday interaction with my mother, my therapist thought that it was a sign my mother was trying to 'change'. This was not my belief nor my DH's belief (as I value my DH's outside perspective). After not saying a word to me or DH during the visit, she gives me a gift (after 20 years) that didn't look a gift and it ended up being a hodge lodge of clothing that was three sizes off and DH's comment "it looks like she threw in some stuff she had gotten from someone else". I am considering what the therapist said and only time will tell, but in the meantime, I'll continue to keep my triggers at bay with self-protection. There is a lot of progress made in the past decades, to where my therapist could use words like borderline and narcissism but still a disconnect when a 'show' is put on for others (gift = change). That is why I appreciate your writing and other bloggers. <br /><br />Hugs,<br />TRTRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532757489135750861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-89672191825771496602015-03-01T04:24:22.604-08:002015-03-01T04:24:22.604-08:00"By the end of my marriage, my ex was talking..."By the end of my marriage, my ex was talking about the same issues we were talking about in 1970."<br /><br />I think that a key indicator of a good relationship is that problems get resolved. When I stumbled into a good relationship, I had the joyous realization that *things can change*. Previously I had assumed that relationships were doomed to frustration and stalemate.<br /><br />"What would I have preferred happen when our family went to therapy?"<br /><br />Wow, what a good thought experiment! <br /><br />I would have appreciated straight talk. In my case it would have been, "Don't keep trying to fix an impossible situation. Here are ways you can disengage gracefully." <br /><br />Best of all would have been if NPD/BPD problem were common knowledge. My friends and family would have reminded me of the telltale signs when I was tempted. After the inevitable happened, I could get good advice about dealing with the drama and confusion.<br /><br />Really, it's not that complicated at the beginning is it? There are definite telltale signs and the solutions are simple (distance, boundaries, etc.). It's only after you're in a bad relationship do things get complicated. As a society we've become aware of the dangers of smoking and drinking, why can't we do the same about BPD and NPD? A little common sense would go a long way.<br /><br />Even after being involved in a BPD/NPD relationship, I think things could be a lot simpler than they are now. Most of us don't need heavy duty counseling. Support groups (perhaps with a trained facilitator or therapist) would be more appropriate. Cheaper and more fun, too!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-73068462896920281962015-02-28T14:19:50.106-08:002015-02-28T14:19:50.106-08:00Hi Judy!
We're lucky in that we experienced t...Hi Judy!<br /><br />We're lucky in that we experienced therapy in the USA and therapy in France while we lived there. My son went to a French psychologist for three years since he had problems adjusting to a foreign environment. My nephew went to therapy for years, being misdiagnosed by a psychiatrist in California, with bipolar disorder. I said at the time, "good gosh---I wish the kid had a mood!" But still, he was put on heavy medications throughout high school. Finally, with group effort from our family (I started digging into the DSM), we had him tested again and lo and behold, he had Aspergers. Not bi-polar. We took him completely off medications and the kid started waking up to life and loving life. The Aspergers diagnosis made sense and at that point, his therapist had a proper diagnosis and was more productive working with my nephew. <br /><br />We have dealt with narcissistic therapists too (one I met with and promptly pulled my nephew out of therapy) who needed more time healing before letting her loose on the public. She was eventually "let go" from the clinic so my perceptions were spot on. I didn't have that kind of confidence when my daughter went to therapy or I'd have challenged the therapist. That is the power of information---I AM most definitely, a more effective parent as a result of self-education. <br /><br />Oh, one of my face-to-face friends lost her husband to a marriage counselor. The counselor left her husband to be with him. ha! O yea baby---our world is populated with narcissistic people! <br /><br />The thing about narcissistic parents (wherever they are on the continuum!) is that they don't invest their lives in "working through their shite." Ya know? They dabble in this or that and make half-hearted attempts to go to therapy. When the work gets tough and the therapist gets too close to the bone, they split. I mean that in more ways than one. ;-P <br /><br />The rest of the family may spend their entire lives working through the aftermath of their awful parenting. At least we find good company by the relationships we're able to create, even in crisis. At least we find a way to make our work meaningful! <br /><br />Hugs<br />CZ<br /><br />CZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-9827773860387302582015-02-28T14:06:13.028-08:002015-02-28T14:06:13.028-08:00Ha! Yea, well that's the joy of writing. You n...Ha! Yea, well that's the joy of writing. You never know what'll show up on the page. <br /><br />This approach by Dr. Childress will hopefully eliminate false allegations of parental alienation. I've been stunned by the father's rights movement (in particular) who seem to believe they can disrespect the child's mother, haul the kid to various girlfriend's homes, stop paying support, and then blame their wife if the kid doesn't trust him. I know there are "alienating" mothers too just in case someone feels the need to inform me. ;-P<br /><br />People didn't really fight over their children when I was younger. That was prior to no-fault divorce and I think men are more invested in actual parenting today. I think in history the professor said men wanted the kids when they were hired hands (assets) but custody went to the mother when kids were financial responsibilities, not assets. What's happening today is heart-breaking and I hope "attachment-based parental alienation" will unify the psychological community and protect "our" children. <br /><br />I am grateful you read this long article (and to all my readers). I realized when composing this story that I write to make sense of my life. If someone else finds something of value, especially if they see themselves in my story, then that's wonderful. But really and truly, writing allows me to accept the past and look forward to the future because finally, Life Makes Sense. <br /><br />p.s. I asked my daughter's permission to publish this article. She's working through another layer of grief by talking about her adoration for her father. "Idealization" of the narcissistic parent is a way to preserve the child's relationship with that parent. The sadness underlying idealization may take years to uncover and process.<br /><br />Love ya,<br />CZCZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-32141000199754713132015-02-28T11:43:19.119-08:002015-02-28T11:43:19.119-08:00BPD and NPD were not well-known, you are so right!...BPD and NPD were not well-known, you are so right! In the 70's, people believed everyone could be cured with a "little love from their friends and family." Psychologists on daytime talk shows, religious counselors, school teachers, everyone was convinced that loving people built self-esteem; the ails of the world could be healed with "unconditional love." <br /><br />What was the quote floating around college campuses back then? "Love means never having to say you're sorry." Yes, we thought loving someone UNCONDITIONALLY would resolve all relationship problems. I was part of that flower-child era, too! (married in 1972). Unfortunately, what we didn't learn with 1970's pop-psychology was how to set boundaries, how to protect ourselves from manipulation, how to love conditionally, when to give up. ha! I can't ever get too down on myself. All I have to do is put on some 1960-70's films and listen to the music. <br /><br />Another important thing to remember is that once you are IN, it's very hard to get OUT. We keep doing what has worked in other relationships and instead of fixing problems, everything stays the same. By the end of my marriage, my ex was talking about the same issues we were talking about in 1970. What had bonded us as a couple, eventually drove us apart. Not because I lost empathy for him (I still felt compassion for his childhood experiences) but because he couldn't change. This is something people cannot know in advance. This could be a behavior psychologists could talk to partners about: is your partner able to integrate change? How has he or she changed over the years? <br /><br />I'm not suggesting therapists tell a client their partner is a narcissist and they should go No Contact as soon as possible. My dream session would be talking about my marriage and then being told that childhood issues might remain troublesome into older age and sometimes partners would get worse, not better. I wouldn't even mind if a therapist suggested examining "my" narcissistic traits. The key would be letting a client know that there was always the possibility a partner might not be able to resolve childhood issues.But learning about NPD was never a witch-hunt for me. It's like a road map for understanding the terrain. It has helped me treat narcissistic people with deeper kindness and empathy. The NPD disorder is not and never has been, a pejorative to justify hurting people. <br /><br />We know so much more today about healthy psychology, about mental health. People are more inclined to seek therapy than they were in 1970. So that's good. What needs to happen now is educating psychologists about Cluster B presentations because they aren't that easy to spot if the cluster B is highly intelligent and knows how to manipulate people's impressions. Then the therapist can treat the family in a more effective manner than assuming both parents are capable of change. <br /><br />I kinda went off there...but this recent deep-dive into parental alienation has sparked my curiosity! What would I have preferred happen when our family went to therapy?<br /><br />Hugs,<br />CZCZBZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575206236892096611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-39701171104672418882015-02-28T07:53:24.165-08:002015-02-28T07:53:24.165-08:00I think the reason a lot of therapists don't s...I think the reason a lot of therapists don't see it is because they struggle with it themselves. I've met so many people who went into counseling because they were struggling themselves. However, the good counselors are willing to learn. I didn't touch on my parental problems with my first two counselors, except very superficially. The second one I put more than a toe in but heard back the usual, "She's doing the best she's able." No. Actually, she isn't. Her physicians have told her she needs counseling, the physicians she idolized, and she dabbled in it to say that she tried. She never put in any work. It wasn't until my third counselor that I finally dove into the deep end, but he was already working with my sister. I knew going in I would be believed. It made a huge difference. We were able to start work without preamble. He would have liked to have seen my completely independent. I'm still financially dependent, but I'm emotionally independent. Of the two, my counselor considered the latter the more important and was pleased with my progress. I liked your reminder to yourself, in the middle there. It's so easy to beat ourselves up over what we didn't know. Judyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07843239483061220089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-92083595687703949102015-02-28T05:02:29.362-08:002015-02-28T05:02:29.362-08:00"It was confusing to watch a man who mocked m..."It was confusing to watch a man who mocked my mothering, spank his kids for having mirror neurons." Is there any more droll sentence anywhere? "Attachment based parental alienation." Amazing how much precision is required to comprehend exactly what helps in therapy and what does not. I remain convinced that many therapists are under qualified in this area; many don't know nearly enough about family dynamics that also involve personality disorders, and the many differentials and variables that form the bad patterns. Fascinating article CZ, and yes, thanks for what you do. love CS Calibans Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817489284771105048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6801485432556979796.post-26806640285368054412015-02-28T04:32:28.651-08:002015-02-28T04:32:28.651-08:00Many thoughts come up when reading your article to...Many thoughts come up when reading your article today, CZBZ. <br /><br />In my histories, the genders were reversed. The mother was the one who had NPD, and the father was the one who was de-valued. In my family, I was at ground zero, close to both parents, confused about what the reality was. <br /><br />Your story helps me understand how a father could have NPD. I can understand intellectually that men can have NPD, but emotionally it doesn't click with me. Why? I think because I'm not vulnerable. I see right away when a man is narcissistic, it disgust or bores me, and I have little to do with him. When it's a woman on the other hand, **something** overrides that healthy response and I'm vulnerable.<br /><br />The other train of thought your post started was about therapists. I've grown skeptical about their competence in relation to NPD and BPD. I spent time around several during the high drama in the 70s, and then occasionally in following years, when family members were having problems. Most of then missed the diagnosis completely. A few joined in the dramas as participants!<br /><br />The actual diagnoses came in passing - once at a cocktail party with a guest who happened to be a therapist. <br /><br />I ask myself, do I blame the therapists for not recognizing the BPD and NPD? <br /><br />I really wish they would have gotten it. It would have saved years of confusion and suffering. But I don't think I blame them. It's not about them - they too are just bystanders in a tragic conflict.<br /><br />- During the 70s when I most needed help, BPD and NPD were not widely known. I don't recall even hearing the terms until the last 10 years. I'm guessing the therapists were also struggling to make sense of these strange behaviors.<br /><br />- Even though they didn't get the BPD/NPD part, most were well-meaning and helped in other ways. <br /><br />- People with BPD/NPD are very good at conning people, playing the role of victim, etc. Don't we know! Therapists, like everybody else, are vulnerable. <br /><br />Thanks for the article and for what you do, CZBZ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com