 |
| Archangel by Fernando Botero |
Resource Page: Is Trump mentally ill; or is he "just" a Narcissist?
Another of my asinine assumptions was shattered a few weeks ago. Busting through unconscious assumptions has become a normalized experience ever since learning that my perceptions were mine alone to own. The way I think, believe and feel isn't how every other person thinks, feels and believes and this can be a rude awakening for people like myself, people who assume their view of the world is shared by every other brilliant, moral and righteous human being whose common sense exceeds the herd mentality of the unenlightened. ha!
However, and there's research to back me up: what I see isn't what other people see even if we're staring into the same abyss. Or, in this particular situation, staring at the inevitable, regrettable and unforgettable apocalyptic outcome of Donald Trump's presidency.
When friends and family told me they supported Trump, I thought-to-myself, "Well, if you knew about the inevitable harm caused by pathological narcissists like I know about the inevitable harm they cause, the hair would stand up on the back of your neck and even if both your legs were broken and your eyes had been pecked out by Poe's raven, you'd crawl to a polling booth to cast your nevermore vote in braille!"
I assumed the vast majority (as in 99%) of Americans realized Hillary would be a more competent president than a man who believed he was king because nobody dared tell him otherwise. Not true. I was wrong. People saw what they wanted or needed to see in order to keep the beliefs they wanted or needed to believe. What hope does an electorate have if a highly-skilled manipulator is conning us while we're also conning ourselves? Oh, the people we believe when there's intent to deceive and oh, the lies we tell ourselves to silence the rap, rapping, tapping of unconscious assumptions.
The Day My Head Nearly Exploded
I spoke with lots of people during the 2016 election. People who seemed rational enough to use sharp instruments instead of crayons at the voting booth. People who were employed by the healthcare industry which I assumed meant an automatic rejection of Trump because repealing healthcare would threaten their livelihood and betray their principles. You know: compassion for patients, aiding the sick and poor, emulating the Good Samaritan? But no, they didn't question what would happen to their job or their patients. I asked why they were voting for a man devoted to destroying our social safety net and they said they trusted Trump to have everyone's best interests at heart, augmented by their intuition confirming he was the right man for the job. (Lots of tells in the words we choose, eh?)
They also told me that if they had to sacrifice what they wanted (healthcare) in order to do the right thing for our country, then the un-treated death of their own child would have meaning. Such cult-like devotion didn't sit right by me because my daughter has multiple sclerosis and needs medical treatment and lots of it. I have learned ever since trumpism took shameless hold in our american culture that appealing to people's empathy would not be effective. There's no point reminding people that anyone can get sick, even people thinking positive thoughts the whole damn day. And. There's no point bringing mercy into the conversation, either. All it does is increase people's defenses against being called heartless and cruel; and then the crazy stuff happens when people say they are showing agape love for sick people because they aren't enabling sloth and greed and entitlement.
One woman told me how excited she was to see American children participating in the presidential election. Her local grade school auditorium had been the polling station where she voted in November and this little kid waited outside the window waving a hand-written sign: Vote Trump! She assumed of course, that I'd be delighted the same way she was. I managed an oddly weird smile wondering if she'd feel the same delight if her own son acted like Trump. Would she want her son mimicking Trump's low character because that's what kids do when they idealize role models. Was she okay with Trump's whatever-it-took-to-win attitude, his lying, his cheating, his "ends justifying the means" philosophy? Did she believe his millions of dollars compensated for a lack of conscience and empathy? And what about her daughter, the one who wanted to run for president when she grew up? Would she be okay if on her daughter's way to the lectern, a man reached out and gave her a thumbs up in her what-nots? Would that be okay? Or would this mother need to see the man's financial assets in order to determine his rights to her daughter's down-theres?
I gave up on the uneducated populace having a clue about Trump's narcissism (we call 'em "civilians" in the recovery community). These were people who didn't know a whit about narcissism, as unwitting as my naive self when meeting a man who betrayed his promises and blamed his inadequacies on me. Who was I to criticize people who hadn't studied narcissism as extensively as myself and my peers, some of whom have traveled this bumpy road for years now.
I couldn't believe Trump had been elected and the shock of my disbelief battled back and forth unremittingly before settling into a horrible reality. It was a lot like that moment after learning about NPD and a woman had to admit with a thud that she'd married a dud. At least this time I knew hearing myself say, "I cannot believe..." was a sure-sign of cognitive dissonance, the tweety-birds reaction we write about during recovery. This reaction was proof I had unconsciously idealized the American electorate. We tend to do that, assume everyone thinks like we do even when we know they don't. I didn't think I did that anymore, though. I assumed my knowledge about cognitive biases would prevent self-deception or at least make it easier to catch. But the truth is that I, without realizing it, had assumed Americans wanted to be the self-professed moral beacons they bragged about being to the rest of our rudderless world. It simply would not compute in my brain that people who claimed to be the most compassionate and fair-minded and god-worshiping people on earth would be thrilled to have the most exploitative, entitled and self-worshiping narcissist to ever run for president. I had to shake my head until the marbles rolled into alignment and for better or worse, I started writing again.
And then...I dared talk about Trump on a narcissism forum. Now one would think discussing Trump and narcissism would be a topic everyone could agree on, right? Or is it just me, maybe its me; and even if I'm the only person who assumed "informed" people would agree Trump was a narcissist, I can accept my asinine-tinged assumptions and open my mind. A little. But dear readers who have managed to stick with me all these years, be wary of asking the following question at your next sermon about Jesus, at your familial dinner table with sick relatives needing care, in a narcissism forum or message board with DSM-reading people, or even at your local sandwich shop piling on the ham and cheese. Pause. Think. Choose wisely before asking:
"Do you think Trump is mentally ill or JUST a narcissist?"
 |
| Louis XVI or Donald Trump? |
"If you are foolish enough to ask, at least don't assume other people see the same pomposity you see!" And that is the wisdom of an Aquarian with a visionary mind and humanitarian principles that aren't always shared by the rest of humanity, or so my astrology-interested daughter delights in telling me each time I bump up against r-e-a-l-i-t-y. She says my cool temperament disguises my passionate beliefs while continually and constantly and inadequately arguing my case against bigotry and ignorance. (Paterson) She also tells me I'm a Rowan Tree keeping people from getting lost on long journeys, protecting them from malevolent beings. Do you feel better about following my blog now? I do.
So I asked the question: "Do you think Trump is mentally ill or JUST a narcissist?" and DSM-educated people answered. Then I watched them leap through fiery hoops and over devilishly high obstacles to protect his majesty's reputation while trump-splainin' to the Rowan Tree. While they danced and twirled and dislodged themselves from all-that-is-holy-and-sacred, it felt like I was looking at myself a dozen years ago. They were me and I was them, a spectacle in self-deception 'cuz yea, I performed similar gymnastics defending the narcissist near and dear to my heart---soaring through hoops on fire with the accompanying scorch marks to prove my loyalty.
And that is why I know that:
When you don't want to see what you don't want to see, there's almost no ends to which you'll go exalting that person before admitting you made a mistake; that the person you chose was a taker, a faker, a heartless policy maker. We can handle the truth sooner than we think most of the time, and then and only then will we see what we didn't want to see when we assumed a certain narcissist mirrored our thoughtful reflection.
As long as people don't examine unconscious biases, they can believe Trump is a benevolent patriarch who despite his clumsy authoritarian ways, has everyone's best interests at heart. And because he's such a lovable goofy and oh-so-ordinary guy like themselves (add his money to absolve all sins), they trust they'll be rewarded for preserving his rights while giving up their own. It's the same lousy story in every narcissistic relationship---we trust and they betray. Period. So in my e-steamed and unprofessional opinion, Trump triggers people to construct the same defenses we used with the first narcissist in our lives. As hard as it is to admit being duped conned and taken for a ride (nobody likes it!), there is richness to be gleaned from self-exploration and self-honesty.
And that is why I know that:
When you don't want to see what you don't want to see, there's almost no ends to which you'll go exalting that person before admitting you made a mistake; that the person you chose was a taker, a faker, a heartless policy maker. We can handle the truth sooner than we think most of the time, and then and only then will we see what we didn't want to see when we assumed a certain narcissist mirrored our thoughtful reflection.
As long as people don't examine unconscious biases, they can believe Trump is a benevolent patriarch who despite his clumsy authoritarian ways, has everyone's best interests at heart. And because he's such a lovable goofy and oh-so-ordinary guy like themselves (add his money to absolve all sins), they trust they'll be rewarded for preserving his rights while giving up their own. It's the same lousy story in every narcissistic relationship---we trust and they betray. Period. So in my e-steamed and unprofessional opinion, Trump triggers people to construct the same defenses we used with the first narcissist in our lives. As hard as it is to admit being duped conned and taken for a ride (nobody likes it!), there is richness to be gleaned from self-exploration and self-honesty.
Currently, the psychological community is engaged in a yuuuge debate about Trump's narcissistic personality. Clinical psychologists, experienced in understanding and identifying the narcissistic personality, have chosen sides. The argumentation is that Trump has a mental illness, a Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and the citizenry should be warned about his pathology. He's not "just" a narcissist like politicians and celebrities and bloggers tend to be.
Because my lousy sciatica has me grounded in a comfy chair, I pulled together a Resource Page for people who might not have time to google and collate this debate. I hope my page of links will make it easier to follow this history-making discussion, one that will be talked about for years if we survive Trump's presidency. And let's give respect where respect is due because psychologists will suffer fall-out for suggesting Trump has a mental illness. This can't have been an easy decision for anyone and yet psychologists have taken a courageous stand anyway. Now that's a role model worth mimicking.
Hugs all! (Even those who told me Trump was awesome)
CZ
Helena Paterson. 1998. Celtic Astrology. Pg. 20
Dana Milbank. Repealing Obamacare Could Violate International Law. April 2007 The Washington Post (Post-election note: I'm not sure why people aren't troubled by the United Nations warning Trump that repealing healthcare violated international law. Trump-folks told me the great USA would never bow to nobody, especially not the UN).
A Traumatic Election: Emotional Overwhelm and Voice March 2017. Narcissistic Continuum
Just Say It: 45 IS a Narcissist! February 2017 Narcissistic Continuum
Dana Milbank. Repealing Obamacare Could Violate International Law. April 2007 The Washington Post (Post-election note: I'm not sure why people aren't troubled by the United Nations warning Trump that repealing healthcare violated international law. Trump-folks told me the great USA would never bow to nobody, especially not the UN).
A Traumatic Election: Emotional Overwhelm and Voice March 2017. Narcissistic Continuum
Just Say It: 45 IS a Narcissist! February 2017 Narcissistic Continuum
Maybe desoriented people - due to real difficult material conditions or media-suffocated that they're onthe verge of losing something fondamental) tend to follow tough leaders with easy solutions.
ReplyDeleteAnxiety puts you in a tunnel vision.
Hugs
nat
Yes, those are possible reasons as to why people look for a strong man to save them from social changes which won't restore the Old Order that may have benefited them (or their parents, etc.). I also think Trump stirs people's fears, a way of evacuating his own fears so he feels better when other people act on his projections. Fear causes tunnel vision. It's hard to think straight when you're afraid. Good points, Nat.
DeleteI also think we spend too much time figuring out why someone votes the way they do and not-enough-time looking at the way politicians take advantage of people's unquestioned assumptions. ( I believe most people go through life without examining their assumptions).
It's much easier to polarize people so they'll pledge allegiance to a political party if leaders appeal to our "lesser angels". Everyone is susceptible to self-deception and marketing propagandists understand this only-too-well. They know what they are doing and we'd best understand that fact.
It's hopeful to me that we are discussing how our "gut instincts" are used and abused by advertisers, politicians, celebrities, CEO's, you name it. Anywhere there's a dollar, someone's figuring out how to put it in their own pocket while making us feel good about their thievery. We are so accustomed to being marketed to and lied to by advertisers/marketers, that we've become numb to liars like Donald Trump. I hope to write more about that soon.
Being an older woman, I can testify to this social change and it has infected everyone, changed all of us and NOT for the better. If a person tries to be honest, they are made fun of today. If a person cares about someone without health insurance or children without food, they are mocked for being "weak and liberal". Money has become the goal, not character.
I am not rabidly angry at people who voted for Trump and I really hope this comes through in my writing. They are my friends even if we disagree.
What I realized in composing this article is that I understand the twisted logic of people who are enmeshed in a narcissistic relationship and that is something to think about if we believe/know Trump IS a narcissist. If someone follow hims, votes for him, agrees with him and justifies his behavior, they are IN a narcissistic relationship and they WILL be hurt because of it.
Hugs,
CZ
Hi, CZ. You wrote "how "gut instincts" are used and abused by advertisers, politicians, celebrities, CEO's, you name it."
DeleteThis is something i'm becoming more aware of and want to share this four minute video. Two ideas are brought up therein.
1) Compromised self-perception
2) Compromised self-worth
https://youtu.be/zUyvRQzkyp4
I think it's relevant to this blog because no one is immune to mind control. But once you're aware you can guard yourself.
Younger people are learning about "manipulation", how emotions are targeted because we aren't the unemotional decision makers we thought we were. But sometimes I wonder if this education has backfired, making people more 'certain' of their ability to filter propaganda and marketing? Well, it's wise to learn what we can about the way our minds work and our hearts but as you've mentioned, "no one is immune"and the more we think we are, the more susceptible we might be. Our hubris gets in the way and then we wake up one day and we're living in a bunker eating rationed beans and wondering when the space ship will arrive. How did we get there? Maybe "compromised self-perception and compromised self-worth" have something to do with it.
DeleteI keep a movie blog with a Cult Videos category about halfway down the page if you're interested:
LINK: The WoN Cinema
People have a right to a voice and I feel respect towards their trying to raise their opinions and compassion for their fears and hopes and vulnerability. Obviously they won't understand they're fooled until they experience it.
ReplyDeleteLet's count on american democracy to be solid and it is to prevent a slaughter.
I regret in these situations lots of energy is wasted that could have been spent better and sooner. But again people need to be educated by experience as most of them lack an education to reach the right conclusions in another way. This is not to be contemptuous as nobody's always right.
As for the narcissistic relationship, it's disturbing to find the same pattern on different scale. As a collective entity we're susceptible to the same powers. Food for thought...
Juge
nat
Lacking direct experience with pathological personality types may explain why people can't make sense of Trump's behaviors. Most of the time, we simply excuse or rationalize or minimize behaviors we don't understand IF we like the candidate, that is. If we don't know "shamelessness" is a Red Flag for pathology, we'll ASSUME someone like Trump is courageous or brave because he's "facing his shame." But geez...he isn't feeling shame and that's something most people don't even know is possible. They also don't know that pathological personalities lack remorse---they never experience regret and sorrow for the harm they've caused others. Trump himself has told us what his diagnosis is but only if we understand pathology.
DeleteHis behavior is highly indicative of "malignant narcissism" which is a narcissism syndrome though not officially listed as a mental illness in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). It's a combo-pack of NPD plus psychopathy. I added a couple of links on the Resource Link by a psychologist named Steve Becker since he believes Trump is a malignant narcissist and dares to say so.
If any nation can defeat a psychopathic president, I have to hope it's the USA. I have to believe we will come to grips with our own narcissism-run-amok and learn powerful lessons not only about politicians, but also about ourselves. My marriage ended because my values collided with my ex's and honestly? We might not know what we believe, what our values are, until they're being trampled. So this can be a huge awakening for people and I hope our democracy is strong enough to manage the battle.
Like yourself, I also regret the amount of time being spent on Trump. Once again, this parallels every narcissistic relationship in which we find ourselves focused on someone else and not ourselves. We have decided as a family to spend an entire dinner together without speaking of Trump. ha! Honestly, we had to intervene because the man will take up every second of every day and our personal relationships will deteriorate as a result.
Thanks juge nat.
p.s. I had to chuckles at your signature because we have a popular tv show called "judge judy". ha!
"Juge" appeared as I typed "hugs" ! Am I being judgmental towards less educated people ? Intelligence has nothing to do with education. Is education only a conditioning ? I was raised in a rather individualistic and competitive environment and education gave me a more positive view and trust in the collective. Hugs
ReplyDeletenat
I don't think we are being judgmental towards people who haven't educated themselves about pathological personalities. I can get angry but then I remember myself and how people warned me about my ex---but I didn't believe them. IT's always hard for me to point fingers at anyone after suffering through the misery of my stubbornness.
DeleteI like your comment about "education giving a more positive view and trust of the collective." Well yes...same thing for me. Understanding human behavior, our development, our socialization and now our neurology, has united the whole of humanity. Ignorance disconnects, biases developing from a fear of the "other", the unknown. I started learning about NPD in order to understand---not to condemn.
Hugs
CZ
We're indeed not judgmental.
DeleteI have 2 examples of people dropped in the world at a young age with unfinished school and no reasonable support. Untrustful and unempathic in both cases (number of cluster B traits). That doesn't make a scientific study but just a correlation that made me consider a lack of education as a possible co-factor of producing a lost soul.
Hugs
Nat
There may be something to what you say. At least we can say education creates a drive for someone to elevate the soul, and sharpen the intellect. Consider this quote
Delete"the quality of their lives depends on the quality of their thinking. We all engage in numerous dysfunctional practices to avoid facing problems in our thinking"
source: http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/becoming-a-critic-of-your-thinking/605
Excellent site, Rob, thank you!
DeleteI also read this (linked below) page and found it very useful for anyone at any "stage" of critical thinking. Some of the suggestions are techniques people learn in therapy, helping us screw our heads back on straight. There's some messedup thinking going on in the narcissistic relationship:
LINK: Critical Thinking in Everyday Life
Intellectual honesty is hard discipline.
DeleteSometimes I turn a little bit delusional, following too far the slope of a certain logic.
However I always feel it, which is not an excuse though... I also feel it's not right which helps correct the trajectory sooner or later. In the end it must be above all (and at the root) a question of moral posture and before that of entitlement.
Ability to reason not sustained by a conscience ruins the soul...
So I may be too idealistic on education.
What I observed around me is that there is a correlation between certain areas of stupidity and a deficiency in empathy. Maybe both are two consequences of a global deficiency resulting in learning disabilities.
nat
When Trump first won the election I was sympathetic to those who voted for him but I've changed my mind. The only explanation is they are stupid. How can anyone believe that a billionaire would, suddenly at age 70, care about the citizens of the United States above his own self interests? You don't have to know anything about narcissism or mental illness to see he is totally unqualified to be president.
ReplyDeleteThose that didn't vote at all, don't cry about your health insurance disappearing or your taxes going to build up the military instead of schools. People, use your brains, think for yourself and vote.
I hear you and understand your sentiments, Silver Voyager. Trump is dividing people---pitting us against one another just like any other narcissist in an organization or family. However, the divide in our nation started long before Trump; though I honestly didn't expect him to represent the so-called moral majority. (where's my eye-rolling emoticon?) It is somewhat comforting to see that the chosen leader of the religious right is totally crazy. ;-P
DeleteOne thing we know about narcissistic personalities: they call themselves what they ain't. So Trump sets things straight again, at least in my opinion. He IS who his followers are. Being able to see his bigotry, racism, sexism, materialism ("trumpism") allows us to deal with truth.
As long as people claim to be something they aren't, the 'resistance" gets lost in uncertainty, disbelief and confusion. Our disabling confusion is the "fog" narcissism sites write about. For example: a person might have a sense that her boss is destroying her reputation but she can't take action because HE SAYS she's a valued employee and there's nobody he'd rather employ than her. If she could see him making plans with the legal department to cut her off without severance, she could do something to protect herself. Well, I kinda think that's how it's been in the USA. We lie to other people and we lie to ourselves because we don't really want to know what our hidden assumptions might be.
The unhealthy side of American narcissism has been coming to a head for years. Are ya ready to speak truth to power; are ya ready to stand up for others?
Not only do they call themselves what they are not but they call others what they themselves ARE. Whenever trump calls someone a name then I've just learned more about trump. He is stressed now so he calls Comey a nut job. When he was in collusion with Russia he called Hillary crooked Hillary.
DeleteHe is such a perfect example of a narcissist I can't even believe it. I think he will eventually get impeached, then we will have to fix all the things he's f'd up.
He IS such a perfect example of a narcissist, that I still shake my head in disbelief when people "dismiss" his bullying as NORMAL.
DeleteHe tells everyone exactly who he is and what he is doing through "projection"--something we all experienced in our personal relationships. And yes, it makes you kinda crazy trying to understand why you've been accused of things you would never-in-a-million years do. We are left 'dazed' by the accusations, defending ourselves and the narcissist skips happy-do-dah all the days having alleviated himself of wrong-doing.
I think actually, that trump is far more of a con-man than an unconsciously-defended narcissist. There's a psychopathic side to this man that should not be ignored or dismissed. He is "aware" of what he is doing and that's what moves him out of NPD and into malignant narcissism--imo, of course!
Indeed people who use mainly " guts instinct " mode do it because they haven't learned to think. Therefore they lack tools to take to pieces bad reasoning. I'm sad I don't believe people can learn critical thinking past student age.
ReplyDeleteWhat can help ? When they say they understand what you mean, they're still using their guts : they trust you so you're probably right...
We definitely need both mode.
nat
Americans are hell-bent to "trust their guts" more than "reason" and this is contrary to what I experienced while living in France. France is where I learned to think critically, no longer fearing reprisals for having a different opinion than the hostess at the dinner table. It was a marvelous mind-opening time in my life.
DeleteCan people learn critical thinking? I can't say with any authority but am inclined to believe they can. The brain is plastic, constantly renewing itself and creating new pathways of thought so it makes sense to me that we could train ourselves to think better, to reason better. But that would require broad acceptance by the larger society, encouraging people to use their brain and their gut. This wouldn't fare well with propagandists/marketers, would it? Much easier to target people's gut instincts and tell them to trust their emotions rather than question them.
I have used textbooks to help myself think better and haven't known other friends/family members who were inclined to do likewise. So perhaps the biggest hurdle is the person him or herself. It surprises me all the time that people aren't interested in how their minds "think" (and really don't want to know that their intuition might be wrong or that their thinking might be biased). This lack of curiosity about how one makes decisions is really strange to me. ~CZ
Maybe there's some good critical thinking in France but also a tendency to overcriticize everything and everyone beginning with our own country. More than "never good enough" : "never good". That's what makes us look so arrogant sometimes although the same people are probably ashamed to be french. Very cluster B !
DeleteHugs
nat
ha! I found your comment in my "spam" section---no idea why it was sent there. I wanted to add a couple of !!!!'s to your comment however because yes, I was flabbergasted at nothing ever being "good enough" in France. If you wrote a perfect paper, the french teachers reduced the score by several points because NOBODY is perfect.
DeleteNow that might be off-putting for some people but for my American Narcissism, is was a healthy dose of reality. I hadn't thought about the way this attitude could be dysfunctional for children growing up in a system that suppressed their natural grandiosity---leading to shame (as you mentioned). Wow...another way to look at this! Thank you for that!
Hugs
CZ
Unfortunately whatever the bad score, the pathological grandiose domeneering ones are unable to process shame. They turn it in something very nasty. The excellent students at risk of suffering from a kind of hubris only benefit from scores not being too excellent imo !
DeleteHugs
nat
Hello CZ,
ReplyDelete(I wrote so much, I will have to split this into two comments!) I too have been watching the rather "interesting" dynamics on the forum you mentioned. Things on that forum reached a point where I stopped participating in certain discussion topics. In fact, I stopped about a month before the discussion of Trump's narcissism was taken off line. The problem I saw was that, as you had pointed out, many people who had supposedly come to the forum because of their personal experiences with a narcissist in realspace either rushed to Trump's defense or protested that they felt "unsafe" and "triggered" by a frank discussion of the man's obvious evil. (There was one other thing I noticed. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but it seemed that whenever there was an honest discussion of the large numbers of people who were likely to be hurt by a Trump presidency, the forum would explode with a number of new threads started by people who wanted to discuss "other things", and the discussion of Trump and of what to do about him got buried.)
I think there are a couple of dynamics at work here. First, (and here I'm putting on my paranoid tinfoil hat again ;) ), those of us who are real people who want to be decent souls do sometimes establish an online presence through forums, bulletin boards and blogs. However, there are those who have a vested interest in crafting an image of the American populace, such as the image of America as a nation in which a majority of people have chosen to take a hard right turn. Among those who want to craft such an image are people who have lots of money, and they can pay people to lurk on forums or post comments on blogs. When your day job is posting lots of right wing comments on forums, you can make decent money pretending to be lots of people - thus helping to create the appearance of a nation that is leaning hard to the right.
But I see a second dynamic at work, because I do meet people who voted for Trump and who support him even now. (In fact, I seem to meet them a bit more often than I'd like!) I hate to say it, but I think the vast majority of them voted for him for all the same reasons - namely, that they want to hold onto an identity based on supremacy for as long as possible, and they are deathly afraid of the emergence of a world they might have to share on an equal footing with others. And this is the thing that has blown me away over the last three years - knowing that among the many online voices commenting on narcissism and describing stories of surviving narcissistic abuse, there are those who refuse to discuss American national narcissism, or racism and bigotry as a symptom of that narcissism. If they do discuss these things, they say that the victims of oppression deserve to be oppressed. (I remember one forum commenter in particular who basically said that all African-Americans are criminals. Another blogger wrote a post about three years ago, with the title, "Do Black Lives Matter? And To Whom?") It's like they are saying, "I suffered a lot, and here's my story that I wanna tell ya, so please pity me! But let's not extend that same pity to those who have been the historical victims of our society, because they deserve to suffer!" A frank discussion of these issues shines a light on their own narcissism, and they can't handle it.
Can such people be cured, then? Maybe - but I think only by suffering the painful consequences of their diseased thinking. I believe that the outworkings of damnation always eventually catch up to those who choose to be damnable. Sometimes those outworkings arrive early enough, and the people who suffer those outworkings are sensitive enough, that the suffering produces a real change of mind. I think of Germany after World War Two. But sometimes the sufferers are so insensitive that they are not easily converted, as was the case with the American South after the Civil War and Russia after the collapse of the USSR. I see those outworkings coming upon Britain now as it suffers the real and painful consequences of the temper tantrum known as the Brexit. And in the case of the U.S., if Trump and his cronies really succeed in repealing Obamacare, a lot of poor red-staters will die.
ReplyDeleteHi TH in SoC,
DeleteI was surprised by the numbers of people who could apply nine DSM criteria to potential-Ns in their lives yet didn't see ANY worrisome signs of narcissism in Trump. I threw my hands in the air and vowed to stop writing because Trump is the finest example of narcissism people like myself could ever hope to use as a teaching model.
My next argument was bringing in an arsenal of psychologists to convince people to at least consider the possibility of Trump's mental illness. Well, no. Not even the best of clinical psychologists convinced people to question their perceptions; or ponder why they might NOT WANT to see Trump as a "N." The more I tried to convince people, the more resistant they became, rejecting me and defending Trump. This was a dynamic I had also experienced when talking about my ex's narcissism---similar to "shooting the messenger" rather than questioning one's biases.
As sad as it is to say, people will cling to their beliefs/opinions and throw away perfectly good friendships instead. Crazy, aren't we?
The good news is that my frustration inspired more research. My goal is understanding, not proving who's right and who's wrong. Although---yea, I am right about Trump being a narcissist.;-P
I came across an explanation of the BackFire Effect here: You're Not Going to Believe What I'm About To Tell You (If you click this link, be warned about "language").
As far as anonymous people go, I had interacted with each person, our discussions going back years in some cases. A dear friend chose to end our relationship because my opinions about Trump were so troubling for her. I have probably lost acquaintances who didn't feel it necessary to tell me off (yea!); but losing friends over a jackass like Trump is disheartening. If my inept handling of the topic was alienating, then I'd better figure out why and how to handle divisive topics because we should be talking about Trump's narcissism! We're the ones studying the disorder!
It's the same triangulation whenever narcissists are involved, though. We split into factions: rescuers and persecutors with the N-as-victim running the show. Sick, isn't it? I believe it's best NOT to engage in behavior that makes us hate ourselves afterwards and if that means we can't discuss Donald Trump, sobeit. But what a conundrum---how do we (psychologists and educated layfolk) warn people about a political leader's pathological narcissism? Does it even matter? Are we making things worse by educating people about pathology?
One more thought about discussing Trump with narcissism survivors: people might assume some of these folks weren't really narcissism survivors since they couldn't even see Trump's narcissism. I think something else is at play and that could be "unhealed trauma reactions". They haven't yet released themselves from an authoritarian childhood. If we haven't yet done this work (and we're never "done"), we might "defend" our view of Trump in order to avoid further self-scrutiny. Trump's authoritarian leadership opens a Pandora's Box of unclaimed, untreated traumas. Maybe.
DeleteNotice how Trump uses fear and uncertainty to keep people unstable so we can't think rationally---reacting instead? It's like Stockholm Syndrome when the hostage bonds to the hostage-taker and it's completely crazy-making to outsiders looking in. Defending one's captor is NOT a conscious decision. People are under a spell. Unconscious forces filter perceptions only the authoritarian spell goes back to childhood when we learned to obey-without-protest, to trust authorities without question (especially males). There's a lot to undo now that Trump has risen to the surface like an infested splinter in the American conscience.
What's increasingly dangerous is that people are unwilling to heed the warnings of "experts" whom they view as "elites" (who is an elite? Anyone who makes someone "feel" less than???). We end up trusting authoritarians because we are living through the unconscious (unhealed) fears of the child. It's a theory---a thought worth considering perhaps.
I also believe unhealthy american narcissism is raising it's ugly head because we are NOT who we claim to be; but that requires a long essay about my experience living in France and what I learned about the American Mentality.
Hugs,
CZ
I can't speak too assuredly of the subject but I feel the American people, although it's the product of a melting pot, has a common religious vision of the way things should be,success retributing efforts and talent and hard work being rewarded with a wealthy life. There's a sense of a divine justice here. Therefore nowadays there must be a deep feeling of injustice and betrayal at a spiritual level.
DeleteAlso "masculinity" is strong in the US. It seems to me that french men have let go of more of it (not as much towards woman as towards life in general).
I certainly don't want to be simplistic but I think "masculine" agentic values could be a little bit put aside in number of cases to allow more happiness. Not an easy subject...
Hugs
nat
I so agree, nat! The first time I noticed the American Optimism, was watching french movies. ;-P "Hey, where's the happy ending!! I didn't watch this movie to get depressed!!" My Swedish friend would say, "Let's rent an American movie where everything turns out swell" and at first, I had no idea what she was talking about. ha!
DeleteI unconsciously believed in a "Just World hypothesis" which needed a serious reckoning when my marriage ended and years of hard work poured down the drain, without harvest, without recompense, without the reward we're supposed to get if we're "good". Americans believe in meritocracy and this idea is rearing its ugly head in our debate over healthcare as a "right" or a "privilege."
Masculinity is another important factor, thus the Strong Man leader. I also believe racism is fundamental to trump's election but it's hard to talk about the impact of slavery without people becoming defensive.
I think we have a healthier understanding of who we are as Americans after this debacle of an election and the thing is: it's not all about trump. It's about the american electorate's willingness to vote for a man who had shown who he was for thirty years before running for president. If trump is who we are, well...okay. Let's admit it. Let's stop pretending we're something we're not.
p.s. Never forget that trump did not win the popular vote so he does not represent the majority of Americans by any stretch! Therein lies real hope...
I heard he has not won with a real majority of the Americans.
DeleteWhat I've forgotten to add is that what lots of Americans feel is felt also in France : empathy towards persons that are different - physically, socially, culturally etc - is not a natural state of mind. Fears and distrust prevail when we live without communicating with each other in separate worlds. Not such an old phenomenon in France but our more recent melting pot with culturally very different people is driving us to the same situation in Europe...
Hugs
nat
Hello,
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the economic crisis has a polarizing effect on both wealth distribution and critical thinking concerning the issues. In France, many people also believe the fairy tale that their situation can improve by damaging other people situation outside and inside the country.
nat
Tears of happiness for Macron's election yesterday. The French were not as gullible as my fellow Americans, always ready to believe the most preposterous lies if those lies justify what they want to believe is true. ha! I'll probably get myself in deep trouble over that comment but I intend to write more thoroughly about "everything I learned from my beloved French friends" in a separate post. Living in France for almost five years was a turning point in my american narcissism for sure!
DeleteThe urge to blame others, to demean others in order to build oneself up seems to be a human behavior no matter where we live or what we believe. We must be on guard with ourselves because we are fed divisive (narcissistic) propaganda every day---even from our pulpits. ARGH
Hugs,
CZ
One in three persons has voted for the french trumpette...
ReplyDeleteHave you been a student in France ?
Hugs
nat
Hi Nat! We moved to Grenoble when our children were eight years old and eleven. My ex worked for an American company establishing the personal computer business in France. I became very close to my neighbors and it opened my mind to think more critically about, well, about everything!
DeleteI attended University to study French because we couldn't speak the language when we moved there but it has been so long that I'm timid about writing or speaking today. Both of my children are fluent without accent but yea, everyone knew immediately that I was American. My maternal heritage is French so I wanted very much to move there when my ex was offered the opportunity.
I've lived an hour from Grenoble for 15 years (bien in Paris)
DeleteWhat region was your maternal heritage from ?
nat
Born in Paris but I was looking for fresh air.
DeleteMy ancestors arrived in Nova Scotia (Acadians) eventually moving to Louisiana (cajuns). I'm unsure where they originated in France. Now my curiosity is peaked. I'll ask a family genealogist (they may not know for sure either).
DeleteProbably from a west coast part of France and courageous people.
DeleteHugs
nat
Well thank you for saying that! I will be seeing family this weekend and hopefully they'll have more knowledge about our French origins!
DeleteIt's so interesting that Hillary is displaying many signs of NPD post election. She is too angry to hide it. Her latest interviews are full of delusions and blame towards others. Even the interviewers are scratching their heads.
ReplyDeleteThose that know her want her to stop talking and also are revealing she has never admitted to failure on any count in her entire life. It's all out there on youtube, even left wing media (which is most) are looking embarrassed.
I have still only seen Trump doing his best for American citizens, constantly under fire by manufactured "scandals" 7 days a week. All of which amount to nothing.
A little information for those that don't know. Trump has been very interested in and commenting on politics plus has been considering running for 25 years. He didn't just suddenly change.
That Travelgate debacle Hilary was involved in was black hearted. Really nasty, accusing the guy that worked at the WH travel agency of embezzlement because he wouldn't use her friend's charter service for general contracting. She could have just fired him, but no, she made a false accusation. This is all on record. He had to go through the court system and was found innocent. This is the kind of thing a toxic narcissist does. Her false statement is officially called False by the courts. This is just one shady truth about H.
I don't think people should say Trumpers have diseased brains (Silver) or they are uneducated, have the wrong life experience, are "just seeing what they want to see". Maybe none of this is correct and those that think Trump is a narcissist is wrong? anyone on here consider that?
I still have heard and seen nothing in particular that suggests he has NPD. I see healthy narcissism but not NPD.
I ask this question of people at the Forum and none are given. It is always the immediate leap (conflation) to full blown NPD with nothing offering the bridge to this OBVIOUS CONCLUSION that everyone on here seems to agree with.
Can someone point out just ONE thing that would tick the NPD box please? just one? besides being a bit sexist and rude on occasion? The "experts say" thing just isn't it. Experts say "these pants will make you thin" also. Experts can be bought, can be partisan. Trump is so dividing people are abandoning their own principals to announce him NPD.
He is doing his best to keep his promises. Does anyone watch his speeches? his exiting the Paris Agreement speech today was full of heart and real concern, he picked through the layers of concern. He isn't lying. What does he have to gain? money? power? he already had that, he didn't need to be POTUS. Could it be he wants to help?
If he HAD stayed in the agreement the media would have said he broke his promise. Instead the news tonight opened with calving icebergs at the top of the hour. . . . disaster, the world is ending.
Actually we are in a normal interglacial period and return to an ice age is more likely. Anyone else notice "global warming" has become climate change? (so if it gets colder it's still "correct").
Great post. It's too bad most of the codependent losers commenting here don't see how utterly wrong they are. They are the real narcissists. It's pretty obvious by the way they buy into leftist tropes with absolutely no evidence, and simply repeat anti-trump talking points without even arguing anything. It's just OBVIOUS to them that Trump is a narcissist, so no argument needed. Then, they speculate about the inner workings of Trump's mind, like "he must like projecting his fears out into the public and have others act on his projections". Yeah, genius analysis there, random internet diagnostician.
DeleteSo the question is wrong. Donald Trump is neither mentally ill nor Narcissistic, do you think there is something wrong with just those two options a little?
ReplyDeleteI am well experienced with narcissism in undiluted evilness close at hand in my life. The lack of introspection, the projection, the shifting of the goal posts. I see this only in Hillary. She doesn't care that the Demos lost, she threw them under the bus in her last interview. She lost and she is still on the warpath. But I'm just a crazy right?
Dear anonymous--I hope you aren't dating. ha!
DeleteThat was a joke because if you're who I think you are, you aren't dating and you aren't american but you are still highly invested in defending trump because...well, I don't know why exactly. Your health insurance isn't threatened and you aren't employed in a workplace becoming increasingly hostile with trump as the alpha male role model.
You wrote: "Donald Trump is neither mentally ill nor Narcissistic, do you think there is something wrong with just those two options a little?"
Trump's mental illness is an either-or answer. I think hard about a subject before posting and the question in my subject title was a tad tongue-in-check. It made me laugh anyway and I need a good laugh these days. So in my opinion, Trump is either mentally ill or he's not. The answer to that question will be answered as pressure continues to mount from "betrayed" Americans (and now the rest of our "Make the Planet Great Again" evidence-based allies.)
Trump is definitely a narcissist though, the perfect example of unbridled American narcissism. *sigh* Recent example? Trump's shameful tromp through the middle east and Europe; his bullying power games (aka: toxic masculinity); his hubris masking incompetence and ignorance (a pretense that is common among narcissists believe me and I'm sure you won't. ha!) Trump is awesome at something though: he is an awesome example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. (too narcissistic to recognize his incompetence and narcissistic enough to see/present himself as a global leader). pppffftttt!!!
Watching him stumble and bumble on his first overseas tour, was like watching the wretched Americans in Paris I've threatened to write about. They were "trumpian" and that was back in the eighties when trump was plotting his rise to power based on hate and racism, sexism and tomfooler-ing the vulnerable. His manipulation of the media is better suited for study in psychology classes, not marketing. ha!
I also believe "we" should examine our own heads---not just trump's. Underlying the majority of votes for this rat-of-a-maN is something people don't want to own in themselves. imo. Something they've repressed, something they'd rather deny than admit. Too many people rise to defend him and that makes me wonder why such 'defensive gestures' are being triggered in the general population? (AND globally, as you've taught me!).
Is it trump's authoritarian style that triggers defensive animosity? When it comes to supporting trump, more is going on than economic insecurity. We can admit "financial distress" without shame, without self-blame. Owning our racism, sexism, internalized self-loathing and fear of "others", is something we will, to our own detriment, defend ourselves from knowing and/or taking responsibility for. Instead, we punish the objects of our self-loathing (projection) and align ourselves with perceived power: the abuser.
I am no longer shocked when victims attack the vulnerable and defend the abuser--this is what people learned as children if they grew up in authoritarian/narcissistic homes. Unfortunately, an abuser has risen to political power and his loyal victims will defend him at all costs to their own integrity and perhaps, their own lives.
The silver lining to this embarrassing chapter in American history is that "an inevitable crisis" may be the only way to shatter our willful blindness, forcing us to face ourselves. The good news is that we are more resilient than we fear, stronger than we believe.
p.s. Becoming our own authority is the healing path victims take after realizing (admitting to themselves) that they had loved the abuser more than themselves. It's a hard thing to look-in-the-face but we'll be healthier for having done so.
Hugs,
CZ
The fundamental way a person look at the other sex is often very revealing.
ReplyDeleteHugs
Nat
Sorry : "looks"
DeleteAbsolutely! I used to be unfairly critical of women. It was something I learned and experienced growing up--the 'double standard' requiring perfection from women and "good enough" from men. Sticking to a healthy healing process uncovering internalized beliefs and changing self-destructive patterns, opens us to Self love. And when we accept and love ourselves, we suddenly find ourselves accepting and loving others in ways we didn't realize had been blocked by unhealed, untreated trauma.
Deletep.s. I've been on vacation and yes, we examined family records from France. It appears our family lived in Montreuil-Bellay (and several other cities). This is not 100% accurate but my daughter's curiosity has been peaked and now she is digging into previously untranslated records. yea!
Hugs,
CZ
Close to the castles of the Loire
DeleteA very nice place !
nat
People attack Hillary with a hatred exceeding the limits of sanity. They insert malice in everything she does, attribute "evil" to her character. All I can say is: she must be a mighty fine person to attract that much hate. The lesson people of conscience learn is this: "the gooder you are, the more hated you'll be because no good deed goes unpunished."
ReplyDeleteMy character was maligned by the man who was repeatedly told what a good person he'd married. When he was caught with his pants down, his "betrayal" made my goodness unbearable. He felt "less than" and when that happens, narcissists devalue & discard a good person to make themselves feel superior again. So I have been accused of being "evil", something people found suspiciously easy to accept and it made me realize how lucky it was to be gossiped about---rather than burned at the stake. People haven't changed much over hundreds of years and I think we'd have witch burnings today if laws permitted. Just like the 1600's, family members would bring the matches...We may not strike matches today but we burn down people's reputations and destroy their lives in an attempt to make ourselves feel better; and to restore order if someone (a woman) threatens the status quo. The vindictiveness and hatred towards Hillary feels like collective hysteria and that's why rational thought and argumentation is completely ineffective, a waste of our breath and time.
When an competent woman rises in a culture that is ambivalent about female power, she threatens assumptions about who should have power and who shouldn't (including internalized beliefs they may not want to know about themselves). If people can fabricate allegations about her character and then proselytize to others (the smear campaign) then they won't have to look at themselves. They'll feel better by devaluing a good person who makes them feel less-than by comparison. The tip-off to self-deceit is the extreme reactions people have and their persistence in convincing people to agree with them. It's a closed loop for a closed mind. They devalue someone's achievement/goodness and in order to believe what they've said is true, they get other people to back them up. People don't "just" have opinions about Hillary---they're on a crusade. People will defend their beliefs in spite of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. It is crazy-making to watch and disheartening to experience if you're the target of their obsession.
You can generally tell when someone is defending themselves from conscious awareness because of their extreme self-righteousness and in some cases, justified violence. Does it make sense that a wealthy woman with thirty years of public service would run a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor? I marvel that people were willing to believe a woman's pedophilia when the odds of this happening are minuscule compared to sexual abuses by men. (and that includes trump). Another example of false equivalency?
Willful blindness feeds gullibility, making us willing victims of manipulators who know what we fear and what we think, and how to use that knowledge to achieve their ends. I think women project internalized self-loathing on Hillary and men see Hillary as a threat to their superiority. Both men and women "out" their misogyny with such hateful allegations which can be a good thing if they'd take responsibility for it.
The distinction between valid arguments and self-deception is the degree of hostility, the credulousness of beliefs, the venomous accusations. The way Americans have treated Hillary is another shameful story for our history books. p.s. Hillary's skin is most definitely thicker than mine and I have the hide of an elephant.
Hugs,
CZ
Hello CZ! I think your recent comments on Trump, American narcissism, and projection/irrationality are right on. The Americans who continue to support Trump do indeed need to examine their heads. Unfortunately, when narcissism reaches a certain point, such self-examination begins to feel like self-immolation because of the painful humility that such honest self-examination requires. At that point, it's just a matter of time before the narcissist crashes and burns. I see this happening with Great Britain, which is experiencing its Wile E. Coyote moment now as a result of the Brexit - yet where admitting such a fact in public discourse is portrayed as an ungodly attack on British patriotism. This is not going to end well for them. A similar fate awaits the United States, I think.
ReplyDeleteFor those who have successfully endured humiliation and self-recrimination after suffering a betrayal shocking enough to shatter our denial and ignorance, we stare darkly into the inevitable harm ahead. It can't be otherwise when a leader displays dangerous levels of pathology. (pathological meaning: unchanging, rigid patterns of behavior becoming increasingly impulsive and cognitively impaired).
DeletePeople dismiss the seriousness of trump's narcissism because we know lovable-enough narcissists and we aren't afraid of them! The Dunning-Kruger Effect comes into play, don't you think? Most people don't know enough about pathological narcissism to understand they don't everything about narcissism. They assume they do because narcissism has been "watered down" through shallow depictions like selfie-ism and braggart-ism and serial sexual relationships. While social psychologists have been refining "narcissism", clinical psychologists have lost the edge they had on pathological narcissism as a harmful disorder for both the narcissist and people involved with them. And now we have trump rising like a pimple on the american psyche. People dismiss him as a blowhard because of simplistic notions about narcissism as nothing more serious than conceit and vanity. There will be an accounting at some point. There always is when you're under the N's spell, allowing him to hold power over you (and others).
There's never a moment when the manipulative narcissist isn't plotting power moves, undermining relationships, (pathological narcissists trust no one because trust=dupes), smearing and destroying reputations. My ultimate fear is that when narcissists are unable to bend relationships/situations to their will, they seek revenge. They will cut off their own nose to spite their face. If they can't control people, they destroy people and that includes themselves! All you have to do is see the pathological narcissist's sadistic joy when harming people and you don't forget it---you certainly don't vote for it if you understand pathology.
That people are "normalizing" trump in our media and in our homes, is typical of good-hearted people. This is what we do when we lack an understanding of history, of authoritarian leaders, of our own vulnerabilities and weaknesses. I have never been a fear-monger and have always had a "Turning Out Swell" vision of the future; however, I am worried. I know how devastating it is to discover you trusted an untrustworthy person. People get hurt. And some people do not have the resiliency to tolerate such indignity. Did you know what a privilege it was to admit to yourself and others that you were an idiot? I could feel humiliation all the way to my toenails and tolerate the shame of my gullibility long enough to restore my sanity and "ground myself in reality". No escape from truth--you gotta ride the shame train until it stops. If people can't do that, they'll continue defending trump to their last breath because they cannot admit he "used' them to serve himself. Denial is a powerful force in our lives and sometimes it protects us from truths we cannot yet bear. In this case, our denial becomes a master manipulator's power tool. Kinda like am impact hammer in a toddler's fist.
(continued)
There is much to be said about the Decompensation of American Narcissism. It's gonna hurt like hell when it happens because it will; in the end, we'll grow up as a nation. We will grow into the values we've purported to emulate. When reality bumps heads with lies, there's a weeding out, a confrontation of things-we-no-longer-believe and the things we do. It is time for us to decide who we are as a nation.
DeleteIf we think about our current situation in this way, it's fair to say Trump is offering us a choice because he is blatantly self-serving and profit-oriented (transactional). Do we believe the USA is a business based on making a profit, no matter who is left hungry, unprotected, cared for? If we are a business and global domination is our goal, we should say so. All this "religious" pretense about shining-lights and high-falutin' principles is making us crazy.
I hated finding out my ex was manipulating my high-falutin' principles as if we "shared" such notions as our bond. It hurt like hell to find out I had wavered on some of my principles, in order to accommodate liarhead's peccadilloes. He was a fun guy to be with most of the time. However, in the end (may it be so with the USA), I know who I am now and who he is and have never felt saner. Truth sets us free but before the exhilaration of our liberation from hypocrisy, we will hurt like hell. Can we ride the shame train long enough to reach the end of the tunnel?
Hugs,
CZ
Hi CZ
DeleteI am sure this particular Anonymous IS the same person you think I am. I found I couldn't choose any other ID without giving my full name unfortunately.
Yes, I am not American, although I have American friends I am in touch with, who live in the very heart of the country that tipped the scales, Wisconsin.
This is why I do not post much. My opinion attracts condemnation because it is different. I am somehow terribly off as a person "need my head examined" etc.,
Whereas, and I don't know you have noticed this - I never tell people with a different opinion they have something wrong them for holding a different opinion. I simply state my reasons without guessing at yours. I don't assume I can get inside anyone's head.
Our life experience is extremely subjective, almost to the point of creating our own reality.
There is quite a bit of philosophy that supports this and since I changed myself, my reality has changed into something quite amazingly different to how it was, when I was severely depressed with complications of anxiety over someone with NPD (intergenerational in my family).
I am not a feminist. I believe in very traditional female roles which is actually subservient to the male just in a few aspects, but not as a doormat at all. I have discovered I am an alpha female and am attracted to alpha males.
I believe the lines between the sexes being blurred is very destructive to the family unit. And will contribute to further difficulties between men and women and healthy female/male relationships.
I will say is that time will tell. Good or bad are ultimately shown to be one way or the other by "the fruits of their labour". This latter is of course, borrowed from the Bible.
Lincoln also was a much maligned President very much swimming against establishment also. Yet history sees him very differently.
I research, read, want to know both sides of the argument, truly. But simply name calling someone and labeling doesn't convince me of anything. If anything, it comes across as insecure.
I love facts and I love your points of view but don't enjoy this base response of assuming your intellectual superiority. However, it is what it is. A very divisive topic, but I will not saying those of you on here, i.e. 100% of other commentators, have something wrong with them for holding their opinion.
So far no actual devastations of humanity and the environment. Shouldn't that have happened already? the guy has been prez for 5 months right? Just chugging away at his promises. Pretty radical.
So, goodbye from the crazy person on here (me).
And see how it pans out over time.
Hi anonymous,
DeleteSomeone called me an alpha female once online and it made me howl with delight! I don’t particularly appreciate human behavior being compared to wild animals but I suppose thinking of humans as wolves is better than pontificating on fruit fly similarities. Comparing human sexuality to the sex life of a fruit fly, really threw me for a loup-garou.
In ALL SERIOUSNESS though folks: I know “anonymous”. We have conversed for a while, talking about narcissistic parents. Now there’s a topic we agree on: narcissistic parents wound children. Some more than others. Some of us need mental health care by the time we’re adults. Some need a life-long recovery program. Some of us need intimate connections with people like ourselves. We are the lucky ones because we believe we are worthy of relationship, and so we reach out--trusting people will wanna get to know us.
Narcissistic parents make “growing up” very very difficult for their children. We don’t know how to “be ourselves” because our individuality wasn’t allowed. If our differences as children were met with reprimands and punishment, we may have squashed a normal individuation process by silencing ourselves...to the point we don't know what we think or who we are or what we agree with and don't.
One of our greatest challenges is having an opinion of our own; thinking through particular situations and figuring out “how we tick”. Even if we are obnoxious with big fat over-sized opinions threatening to isolate us from the northern hemisphere, our task is STILL coming to an understanding of ourselves. Knowing who we are and how we are similar yet separate from others.
One day we wake up and realize (fearfully at first) that we have an opinion and people aren’t gonna like it. But lordy--there it is. We’ve got it. We’ve got an opinion of our own and we want to express it to someone just in case there’s another person who might agree with us. That would be comforting, wouldn’t it? THAT is the recovery work being done in groups where we learn who we are and what we think. This sacred healing work might be the first time in our lives EVER that we’ve distinguished ourselves from the familial goo. We should be honoring one another’s differences as the achievement those differences are.
About trump:
I may not understand why someone doesn’t see trump’s narcissism when it’s as obvious to me as freckles on my forearms; however, it’s not my job nor my intention to shame, power-over, or silence disagreement. When there’s no disagreements between people, that’s when I freak out. So I shall refrain from name-calling (which I never intended to do ever ever) and invite people to express themselves without name-calling, too.
I appreciate such honesty about who you are, anonymous, and why you believe trump is not the dangerous leader so many of us believe him to be. I can understand much better now, why your perspective differs so greatly from mine. In fact, you've inspired an idea for an essay which I hope to write soon! Thanks for daring to come back and share more about who you are and why you like trump.
Hugs,
CZ
Oh my, what a retarded article. Don't you know you're not supposed to diagnose people you've never met?
ReplyDeleteNothing like anonymity to bring out the best in folks. I'd be happy to read your not-retarded-assessment of the Trump presidency if you have a link.
Deletep.s. Are you posting from the White House?
Five minutes after leaving this comment, you posted a reprimand to me: "Don't you know you're not supposed to diagnose people you've never met?"
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, I don't believe you and I have ever met. ha!
As far as your analysis of my narcissism is concerned, you are entitled to your opinion. I have written enough about my life that people oughta be able to draw their own conclusions.
Listen, I really don't want to argue politics with anyone and certainly not online! When I started writing about 45, my presumption was that anyone reading my blog would appreciate talking about 45's behavior. I had no idea people would disagree---especially after clinical psychologists expressed their opinions about his narcissism. Not all psychologists believe 45 is a malignant narcissist or even NPD; but it's pretty much standard opinion as to 45'w elevated narcissism. That's not me saying 45 is narcissistic---it's professionals, to whom I always turn for information and guidance.
Take care,
CZ
Hello CZ
ReplyDeleteI had read your blog. Now I'm going through the WoN. Very nice place to be, full of enlightening threads and sometimes very funny comments. Really a pertinent answer to the problem of narcissist pathology.
Juge
nat
Hi Nat! I haven't been online very much lately but hope to resume engagement with fellow bloggers this winter. Nice to have you on WoN---we first organized our group in 2005 (long time, right?). At first, forums were the best way to educate people and connect them to one another. Now blogging is much easier and less time-consuming...it's a good and a bad thing, maybe.
DeleteThanks for sticking around during my absence!
Hugs,
CZ
Hugs...
ReplyDeletenat
I came across your blog because I was looking for info about Triangulation. I too am a daughter of a NM and NF. My parents seem to be more subtle than how you describe your NM - possibly more passive aggressive. I recently came to the realization of their true colors and have been educating myself through books, blogs, and professional sites. After reading your post about Triangulation,which was great!, I decided to see what else you had to say. This post was the second article that I read.
ReplyDeleteI found this post to be a bit off. I understand how an adult child reflecting on their own childhood can come to the conclusion that their parent is a N. They have had many years of insight and evidence to reflect on for coming to that conclusion. What seems odd to me is how you have concluded that Trump is a N when you don't even know him. You only know what the media has said about him. Isn't that also triangulation? You have so much emotion in your post above. You assume so much without even knowing him. Isn't it interesting to you how the media and public figures thought highly of President Trump, even Oprah,before he ran for president and then when he decided to run for president, their views about him changed over night? Have you ever spent time with him personally? Have you ever spoken with anyone who has known him personally? I would guess, probably not. The thing is, after all I have been through, I am less likely to believe what people say about a someone who don’t know the person and also less likely to believe people who have been known to be untruthful. I would certainly question what these people are saying and their motives. I would not automatically assume it is truth. As you know, stories can be deceiving. I know, I have lived through being lied about
I think it is best, as a general rule, to assume the best of someone unless it is proven wrong. I tend to question people's motives because that is how I learned to and forgive (in my heart) my mother. Her alcoholic mother was a N and although my mother was not an alcoholic, she inherited the narcism. Her motive was to make herself look good so she through me under the bus. She was protecting herself twisting the truth about me. She often told family and friends that I was weird, had a problem with arguing, I stressed her out, etc. I had to learn to "mother" myself and I had to let go of mothering her (which got me nowhere but misery).
Back to this article, I think you sound angry and actually a little cuckoo. You aren't thinking rationally. You aren't using reason. You are giving yourself and others only two choices: Is Trump mentally ill or Is Trump a N. That is the fallacy of a false dichotomy. There are more options other than the two choices you present. Who are you to diagnose Trump with narcissism when it takes a professional to diagnose narcissism and mental illness. You assume he is and you also assume that his plans will kill America. I do not think it is healthy or helpful to be so disparaging. I would listen to those who know and work with Trump to see what they have to say. If you hear things that you don't like, disagree with those principals, write your congressperson, and be active. What if the mainstream media is doing the splitting and keeping you from listening directly to what Trump has to say? The only way to find the truth is to listen to the source. You don't need a middle man. You are smart and you can decide for yourself.
Still, I think your other blog posts are worth reading. I will keep reading. I hope you can agree to disagree about these political issues though. I don't see things the way you do when it comes to Trump.
Hello Heidi, household of 10! Bravo for taking on the challenges of a large family. Never was easy to do but I can't even imagine the costs and effort required to raise a healthy family.
DeleteThere are many days today when I'd like to throw my television against the wall and might have done so when my children were little. Even back in the 1970's, I limited the amount of time my children were exposed to television. So if your children ever give you a bad time for protecting their innocence as long as possible, have hope that in the future, they'll respect your willingness to live by your conscience and parent them the best way you know how. <3
I am not AND never do or will, diagnose someone according to my limited experience as the ex-wife of a narcissist. My mother is not a narcissist so perhaps my articles about narcissistic mothers have led people to think I was writing about her. Having talked with (and continuing to support daughters-of-narcissists, I have educated myself through their experiences and psychological literature). I do take my blog very seriously and my forum also.
In writing about Trump, I am following the lead of respect-worthy psychologists, clinical psychologists who have treated people with NPD for decades. They ought to be guides for those of us writing as lay-people because they've offering a more valid perspective on Trump's narcissism than a fairly smart everyday mother without a psych degree like myself. I offer an opinion which I hope isn't too cuckoo for cocoa puffs (ha!) based on what I continue learning about narcissism each day.
Yes, there are psychologists such as Dr. Allen Francis who suggests Trump isn't mad (as some psychologists claim), he's simply BAD. As in "bad character". The rest of us, Dr. Francis goes on to say, might be a bit mad though. ;-P
As far as the title of my blog goes: tongue-in-cheek. And a succinct reduction of the ongoing argument among professionals: is Trump merely narcissistic (personality trait) or is he NPD (personality disorder)? I thought it was hilarious the day this title came to mind and hope there are at least a few people getting a chuckle out of my mastery of the English language.
Please do read the first article linked at the top of my blog's side column about "The Narcissism Key". I think you will realize that I have invested a lot of time studying narcissism as a trait and as a disorder. I have not written this blog based on personal experience. I started writing and learning about narcissism because of my ex-husbaNd but even then, felt a bit sheepish about suggesting he had a disorder until my observations were validated by a professional.
I appreciate your perspective and even if we disagree, hope you are right about Trump. If you are and he is not a malignant narcissist, then perhaps you could pick up some pocket change counseling the psychological community. <---tongue-in-cheek. Before setting up a seminar however, you might want to read the following books (I have):
"A Clear and Present Danger: Narcissism in the Age of Donald Trump" edited by Cruz and Buser.
"Twilight of American Sanity: A Psychiatrist Analyzes the Age of Trump" by Dr. Allen Frances.
"The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President"
Hugs,
CZ
Trump Derangement Syndrome affects the nicest people. Including some psychiatrists, and CZ, who is usually quite a rational lady, judging from her blogs.
ReplyDeleteIt really is a THING. Most people are Never Trumpers or Ever Trumpers. He is some kind of touchstone for personal projection of fears. Or on the opposite, hopefulness. He makes people crazy, by just being himself.
I believe President Trump will be a beloved two term president.
It is Hillary displaying toxic narcissism. The denial, the throwing of everyone else under the bus for her loss, against a supposedly horrid person. It's the media's fault - they were never on her side she says (CNN openly admitted to doing their utmost best to support her), Obama's fault (for being a two term president), women's fault (for "doing what their husband's suggest when voting"), the polls for being too positive about her and so people didn't bother to vote because she was a shoo in, the Democratic party, for "being a mess". Oh dear, how her machinations worked against her. She had the whole establishment in her pocket, Beyonce on her stage.
In Trump I see an imperfect man with narcissistic, healthy ego and dominance - he is a "boss man" very Alpha and highly proactive - exactly what every President needs to be. I see a great family, a demure wife, who will never be on the cover of Vogue, unlike other First Ladies, despite being an attractive former model. As Heidi said above, both Donald and Melania were the toast of the town, until he ran for President, and won. That wasn't meant to happen!
My book recommendation is: "12 Rules For Life" by Jordan Peterson.