Tina Swithin and Dr. Craig Malkin
Tina Swithin is the author of a popular blog, One Mom's Battle. She has a new book on Amazon with five-star reviews which looks promising: Divorcing a Narcissist.
"At the age of 26, Tina Swithin was swept off her feet by a modern day Prince Charming. Married just one year later, Tina soon discovered that there was something seriously wrong with her fairytale. The marriage was filled with lies, deception, fraud and many tears. Tina was left in an utter state of confusion. This wasn't the man that she married...or was it?" ~Amazon Link
Dr. Craig Malkin is "an Instructor in Psychology for Harvard Medical School and licensed psychologist with two decades of experience in helping couples, individuals, and families. His research on the role of relationships in psychological growth has been published in peer-reviewed journals, and psychologytoday.com has called his blog Romance Redux “an essential read.”
All You Need is Love
My experience was different from Tina's which is only reasonable. Narcissists are people, too---just as unique as everyone else. The relationship we create with them will vary, depending on our personality style, the situation, our interactions. Tina speaks for a lot of people who identify with her high-conflict divorce situation and it's wonderful that she's willing to self-disclose during a painful process. I hope her online presence during divorce will be beneficial since one of people's concerns is getting through divorce without losing everything they own, including their integrity. As bloggers and forum participants, we're doing a great job DESCRIBING narcissism but the practical issue remains: "What do we do now? Give me some steps, some direction. Help please!" If anyone has read her book, your thoughts or even review would be greatly appreciated.
My Love Story
My romance story goes back so far, it faintly reeks of mothballs. Tina's experience may be more relevant today, than my marriage in 1970. I've also wondered if her experience is more reflective of today's dating scenarios? In the 1960's, we were less inclined to believe in Prince Charming than to believe the charming fairytale that all we needed was love. Dude. If someone acted like a horse's ass, love him up because things were gettin' better all the time. If she acted like a harpie, love her 'til she loved you back.
Love made the world go round 'cuz love was all there was and strawberry fields forever man. Groovy. Love meant never having to say you were sorry. Love Story (1970) made a fortune on the no-remorse principle ruining good-enough relationships with others, and mostly with the self. Never having to say you're sorry was a self-serving pipe dream promoted by narcissistic people demanding unconditional love that should only be reserved for babies. Not that I'm bitter or anything. So Sorry if my opinion caused offense.
If you fell for Prince Charming who promised you a fairytale and you're reading my blog....well, that's not my story although it's a common description of narcissistic relationships. My marriage would be more of an example of the Tragic Man's decline at midlife because I was never ever in no way "swept off my feet" by his lure of a Magical Kingdom. Our marriage was hard work man, from the day we exchanged our vows to the day we ended them...and even afterwards. For awhile, I thought because he hadn't seduced me that it meant he wasn't a narcissist, and we hadn't created a narcissistic family of our own. (isn't that a horrid thing to write about your good intentions?) He was no Prince Charming and that was okay with me because I was no Princess Unicorn, of that you can be sure.
My conclusion is that there are many varieties of narcissistic relationships and each of us has something valuable to contribute to the growing knowledge about narcissism---as a normal personality trait and as a pathological disorder. Perhaps one day, because of our continued efforts on the ground floor, researchers will have as much professional support and useful treatments as we're seeing in the Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) community. I hope this be so 'cuz that would be far out and awesome.
My Love StoryMy romance story goes back so far, it faintly reeks of mothballs. Tina's experience may be more relevant today, than my marriage in 1970. I've also wondered if her experience is more reflective of today's dating scenarios? In the 1960's, we were less inclined to believe in Prince Charming than to believe the charming fairytale that all we needed was love. Dude. If someone acted like a horse's ass, love him up because things were gettin' better all the time. If she acted like a harpie, love her 'til she loved you back.
Love made the world go round 'cuz love was all there was and strawberry fields forever man. Groovy. Love meant never having to say you were sorry. Love Story (1970) made a fortune on the no-remorse principle ruining good-enough relationships with others, and mostly with the self. Never having to say you're sorry was a self-serving pipe dream promoted by narcissistic people demanding unconditional love that should only be reserved for babies. Not that I'm bitter or anything. So Sorry if my opinion caused offense.
If you fell for Prince Charming who promised you a fairytale and you're reading my blog....well, that's not my story although it's a common description of narcissistic relationships. My marriage would be more of an example of the Tragic Man's decline at midlife because I was never ever in no way "swept off my feet" by his lure of a Magical Kingdom. Our marriage was hard work man, from the day we exchanged our vows to the day we ended them...and even afterwards. For awhile, I thought because he hadn't seduced me that it meant he wasn't a narcissist, and we hadn't created a narcissistic family of our own. (isn't that a horrid thing to write about your good intentions?) He was no Prince Charming and that was okay with me because I was no Princess Unicorn, of that you can be sure.
My conclusion is that there are many varieties of narcissistic relationships and each of us has something valuable to contribute to the growing knowledge about narcissism---as a normal personality trait and as a pathological disorder. Perhaps one day, because of our continued efforts on the ground floor, researchers will have as much professional support and useful treatments as we're seeing in the Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) community. I hope this be so 'cuz that would be far out and awesome.
Hugs,
CZ
I have often wondered if these stories, these blogs, might somehow mean something as we move off of the ground floor of this. I hope so.
ReplyDeleteI think too, that due to being on the ground floor, there is a lot of emphasis on finding the "sameness" in each other. Joining together through our commonalities. Finally feeling validated that we are not alone, or crazy, in all of this. Narcs can be so damn predictable sometimes. And it's easy to lose focus that they are all individuals too and you've pointed it out brilliantly. I think remembering that my narcs might not fit the "mold" all the time, doesn't make them any less of a narc, is important.
Hi Jessie,
DeleteValuable insight about 'finding commonality' with one another before distinguishing our differences! That's an important insight now that the Prince Charming Story has become the leitmotif for "all" narcissistic relationships. ARGH!
I have known people who were swept off their feet and remained lofted in love ethers their entire lives so romantic beginnings aren't anything to fear. The real question is: Can this person GROW with you? And sometimes they can and sometimes they can't, and I'm just not sure it's predictable.
It sounds like from the interview, that Tina's x-husbaNd also exhibited AsPD (psychopathic) behaviors (stealing, fraud, etc.) That IS a sign of malignant narcissism which would be different from the narcissist I married. I'd like to at least make that distinction for people who may not realize narcissism is a spectrum of behavior from: annoying to pathological, to a psychopathic cocktail of NPD and AsPD. That's another problem we have in writing about narcissism---there's a continuum of behavior including normal narcissism.
Maybe we've gotten to a point where we can write about individual distinctions, instead of clumping narcissists together in a big bad ball of wax? Underlying whatever their "presentation" of traits may be, is a Grandiose self interfering with their ability to create loving relationships with other people AND with themselves!
We didn't know very much when we started writing about narcissism over ten years ago. It's thrilling how educated people are when they comment on my blog or the forum today! There was literally nothing on the web about NPD and now we're moving towards refining narcissism beyond the Malignant Narcissism Syndrome (which predominate websites, blogs, etc.)
Thanks for reading and commenting, Jessie.
Hugs,
CZ
Hi dear CZ, what I find most reassuring, in your post above and in general, is that even though there are wide variations in how scenarios play out, as people's personalities are so particular, the universal tendencies in all narc-centered relationships can be discerned, like a red wire that runs through all the cables. Sometimes we have to untangle a lot of factors, but we can always find that wire once we know how to recognize all the manifestations. It's a long hard road. You began documenting these experiences over a decade ago. I read your blog for a year before starting to blog myself. It took me that long to "believe" that there really were other people out there like me, who had suffered from the deformed personalities who were "supposed" to love me. And coming to accept this has helped me make huge strides this past year (with some unexpected potholes to be sure); nonetheless, I don't think I could have made as much progress as I have this last year if not for people like you, Kitty, Kara, T Red, Toto, and the other kind, wise and compassionate minds who are sharing their experiences. Even though I've been dealing with issues from my FOO, I know that I've learned so much about narc relationships that I will probably never get sucked in to another love relationship with a narcissistic man. That's repeated my pattern of interaction with my NF, and I'm not going to do that ever again. At least, fingers crossed, I won't. love CS
ReplyDelete
DeleteCaliban's Sister wrote: "like a red wire that runs through all the cables"
Beautiful description. If you dig deep enough, there it is. Just like an electrical current, you'll be shocked if you aren't grounded. LOL...bad joke, but true.
It's thrilling to see how people are applying information about NPD. How they've experienced the narcissistic person, which traits were the most destructive; how they've reacted to the narcissistic person and what they've done to remedy the "inevitable harm" (as Sandra Brown puts it).
The N-truth is in their STORY and what has informed me most has been talking with wonderful people online. People who were not interested in blaming the narcissist, but in understanding the narcissist. I think the desire to understand is motivated from compassion and caring. It might not appear that way to "outsiders" reading blogs and message boards, but the desire to understand is there.
I was intrigued by Tina Swithin's rise in the blogosphere and her ability to write a book about divorce while she was going through her divorce. I'm amazed at women's ability to "Put themselves out there" in a self-promoting way and have seen some of my peers step into the spotlight. (I've written about this before).
My daughter and I have talked about generational differences between women, especially my drive to create community. I managed a forum for several years before blogging which felt kinda "spotlightish" to me at first and raised my anxiety. It doesn't seem to even faze younger women; in fact most of them have blogs about their families and books for sale, too. But gosh, I'm probably old enough to be Tina's mother so just being able to create a website is a miracle. ;-P
We need all kinds of women to talk with each other and keep talking, just the way we used to do around the community well in the town center. We need to talk about what's normal and what isn't. Where our desire for family is appropriate and where it isn't. What mutuality is---what reciprocity looks like...when divorce is a better solution than sticking together. I have found great strength in our community well conversations and I'm much clearer and stronger as an individual.
Once again. A ramble. I figure women would fear me coming to the well with my empty bucket. "O no! There's CZ again! Don't let her start talking about narcissism or you won't get anything done for the rest of the day!"
Love,
CZ
I realized as I typed that I'd never get into another love relationship with a narc man, it was probably too cut and dried. It's hard to tell at first, if a man is really good at hiding his narcissism, and after all, they can be VERY charming. The last man I was involved with a few years ago had me completely fooled for nearly a year. Then I started seeing patterns that were about "putting me in my place," just like my NF always did to me. I got out of that fairly quickly once I realized he was threatened by my accomplishments, but it did cost me emotionally. Chemistry is chemistry, and we had it to spare.
DeleteIt's hard to see a pattern if you haven't known someone very long. If you've informed yourself, you won't misinterpret the pattern as easily.
DeleteThere's no way to spot a narcissist over one dinner date or a Facebook page viewing. There are lots of silly articles online today. Stuff like, "I summed her up as a narcissist in ONE conversation!"
Wow. Tell me about your issues with grandiosity. LOL
The two things we CAN watch out for are: exploitativeness and entitlement. If someone is self-focused during a dinner date, so what? They might be nervous.
In line with the topic of this conversation, married men on the prowl are exploitative and entitled. They feel entitled to having their sexual desires met even WHILE they exploit the woman at home making cinnamon rolls. They may indeed have a weak sense of self and a deep insecurity as some suggest; but they are STILL entitled and exploitative.
I haven't been dating men (they don't want someone my age and besides, I'm kinda hard-headed). But I have met and loved narcissistic women who have hurt me, dumped me, scorned me, blamed me, tried even to destroy my credibility. I had lessons to learn about female narcissists, too. And the same pattern of "entitlement and exploitation" appear through the course of their entire lives.
Learn to be cautious about anyone viewing him or herself as a victim if victimhood excuses them from taking responsibility for themselves. So there's a dangerous pattern to look out for: the married man who claims to be a victim WHILE victimizing his wife and exploiting "the other woman's" sympathy.
Hi CZ,
ReplyDeleteA good reminder that not all narcissists are the same--even though, as CS says, they exhibit many of the same tendencies, and we can train ourselves to see them. Yes, yes, yes. The Ns I've known have ranged all the way from rageful alcoholic (NF) to diabolical manipulator to hugely helpful and supportive in all matters that weren't threatening to him. Some are highly intelligent and some, not so much. Some need constant praise and reassurance, some just need to feel like they're in control. Some are very sophisticated and careful, some broken and needy. Some hide behind non-narcissistic activities, like 12 Step work, getting their needs met from the admiration of those they help, while others are blatantly self-absorbed. And yet they all do exhibit similar behaviors, like lack of empathy, inability to be emotionally vulnerable, and a sense of superiority--which can sometimes take awhile to see, but is always there.
Another great reminder that our feelings are never wrong; it can just take awhile to notice what it is they're trying to tell us. :)
Kitty
XX00
Our feelings are there and we know something isn't quite right but the problem is our education. Our folk wisdoms. Our cultural explanations. Our erroneous rationalizations and most of all: our IGNORANCE. Someone asked me why I stayed with a man who struggled to love other people and get out of his self-centered universe. I said there were five reasons why:
Delete1) I did not know about personality disorders
2) I did not know about personality disorders
3) I did not know about personality disorders
4) I did not know about personality disorders
5) I did not know about personality disorders
Finding out there was such a thing as Pathological Narcissism was as illuminating as Newton's Law of motion. There is no way to decipher narcissistic behavior if you don't understand the gravity of personality disorders. (sheesh...it must be a punny day for me, eh?)
As your description suggests, it's impossible to know beforehand, who might be pathologically narcissistic. How can you know someone can't change until they don't?? I've seen people change their lives, even their personalities. I've changed. It's not pathological to believe people WILL change...there's enough evidence to suggest it's possible.
So maybe for right now, people are spotting narcissism everywhere however, this will pass as all things do, and we'll have better refined our knowledge about the narcissistic continuum.
Love,
CZ
Yes, yes, yes. I remember the first time I heard about personality disorders. I took an abnormal psych class my freshman year of college. I was too far from my own recovery back then for much to stick, but I do remember the section on personality disorders (then, it was primarily antisocial personality disorder, with a photo of a tattooed gang member for illustration), and I most clearly remember that it said people with personality disorders very rarely change. Even then it put a light on inside my skull. So I have known for a long time how personality disordered people are different from the rest of the population. Even so, I recognize most of the personality-disordered people who've been in my life only in retrospect, I think because I learned to ignore that radar telling me to stay away; heck, the radar usually did the opposite, and made me want an up-close-and-personal experience! I can FIX this thing!!
DeleteI dont know how I got from that, to ending up with the least narcissistic person I have ever known. If I could figure it out, I could probably make millions selling the formula. :-)
Also love the conversation w/CS about community and sharing our voices and experience. Truer words never spoken. I've been doodling around with a post on a very similar topic.
Love,
Kitty
I can't overemphasize the impact of my Christian upbringing which taught that everyone can change. Everyone has the light of Christ in their heart and we should forgive seventy-times-seven lest we be found unworthy ourselves. People might not understand this "programming" if they didn't grow up this way but I have known too many good Christian women like myself whose charity and sincerity was taken advantage of. Shall we say, "Exploited?"
DeleteEven had I taken a course in abnormal psychology, my beliefs would have allowed for exceptions as long as that person was making an effort to change. This is a good and beautiful thing because some people do change (not easy but it is possible). But overall, I'd say this kind of thinking has caused inestimable pain for very good-hearted people who didn't know how to "let go". I had to dig down to the most basic of my beliefs and question them, turn 'em over and inside out and even chuck a few that were clearly political, not biblical.
I avoid this conversation like the plague usually because I am not interested in talking about my (or other people's) religious beliefs. However, our religious programming is a VERY important piece of the puzzle as to why a competent woman like myself would believe her partNer could change, despite evidence to the contrary.
Maybe one day I'll feel strong enough to tackle this topic. Conversations get really ugly when people do and I hate stuff like that because life is too short to spend our time arguing.
I look forward to reading your post about community, Kitty. Now and then, I consider writing about WoN which has been a life-affirming and truly honorable experience for myself and many others who reached towards one another in a time of crisis.
Love,
CZ
Me too. Look forward to reading about community, Kitty. It's a precious thing to have, and takes work to maintain. I'm glad you guys are there. xx CS
DeleteI would love to hear about your religious beliefs. I think they are fine to share, esp. in the context of choices you've made. Not only would it be fascinating, but I think it would provide great insight into how beliefs affect our decision-making process. Sometimes it takes seeing someone else's experience to step back and see your own, esp. about lifelong beliefs.
DeleteMy community post is also in terms of recovery. I would love to hear your thoughts about that, as well. It's just been on my mind lately because, like Kara, I have just had so many light bulb moments and dot-connecting experiences from our conversations. I am so grateful for this, more than I can say.
Love,
Kitty
'Turning the other cheek' kept me entangled for 22 years. I could never be good enough for either him or the church no matter how hard I tried. And I really tried. Over and over. But patriarchy is patriarchy and I didn't want to die from it. That's what martyrdom is.
ReplyDeleteWhat has helped me? Your blog. Immensely. The humour and humanity is so warm. Also after roaming the web for a few years now, Melanie Tonia Evans site and work is wonderful. The other thing that has given me life support while going through my separation and divorce (and I can't even say what it is costing me without choking because it ain't over yet and he just dumped one lawyer after 2 years of craziness and hired another one) but, okay, the book that has helped me and my lawyer enormously is 'Splitting: Protecting yourself while divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder" I have not seen it mentioned on your site before, so Thank you so much for providing this shared community. AnonymousB
Thank you! If my blog is helping you get through your divorce, then yippeee!! What a lonely process that was, frustrating and devastating at the same time. My X and I didn't have adversarial attorneys which seemed best at the time since my X is gonna win come-hell-or-high-water. If there's a competition, he'll come in first whether he wants the trophy or not.
DeleteDr. Eddy is a favorite resource although I have not read his book on "Splitting". I was divorced by the time he came to my attention. I've written a couple of blog posts about Dr. Eddy's E.A.R. (empathy, attention, respect) which may be worth reading and maybe not having been written in 2008 when my brain was still reeling from the shock of it all:
http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/search?q=Bill+Eddy
I'm only slightly familiar with Melanie Tonia Evans, being a skeptic of most things 'energetic' and 'law of attraction'. Just not my thing but whatever works, whatever gets people back on track, whatever restores people's self-efficacy and power, they should do it, use it, buy it!
As evidenced by my longevity on the web, I have given thought to setting up a healing plan called: "Slow Is Fast; This Ain't No Marathon, My Friend". ;-P
I hope your divorce is over soon and that your soon-to-be-x fades into non-existence like pestilential effluvium and you look back on your experience as a period of great growth and dignity and meaning.
Hugs and Healing,
CZ
I think that the culture loves to tell us (not just religious culture either) that everyone can change. Think of Dickens' Scrooge--movies and tv are filled with stories about people who go through little traumas (or big ones) and their core personalities change. I used to believe that people could really truly change. My NM tried to convince me repeatedly that she'd grown, changed, learned. Then inevitably a year or two would go by and she'd a) forget we'd even had the conversation or b) tell me she only said it to "keep the peace." People become who they are on a temperamental level by the time they are teenagers, I think--then, unless they work like crazy to change, as so many of us have done in our efforts to break patterns we've been stuck in for years, they just revert to type. I cannot tell you how many people I've seen revert to type after performances of "good behavior." It's sad, and can make you cynical, but unfortunately anyone who has a history of screwing you over or treating you badly will always, at some point, revert to type. That's my opinion. I could be wrong. But I don't think so. Wish it were otherwise. Turn the other cheek, and wait for the next slap!
ReplyDeleteSend me your address (tina@onemomsbattle.com) and I will send you my book :) Tina
ReplyDeleteThank you, Tina! How lovely to hear from you! I had intended on reading your book earlier and probably should have done that first. But I wanted to get the word out in case some people hadn't heard about your book or blog.
DeleteWhen people are divorcing a high-conflict partner, they need all the help they can get. It's been very useful for me to read people's stories and identify with their situation. Their experiences built my confidence and encouraged me to face my own 'battles'.
I've been on a 'bent' lately, reading true life stories written by women. Is there a genre for True Life Divorce Stories? Do bookstores sell those books in the HORROR section or the psych section under TRAUMA???
I will post about your book as soon as I've read it. Thanks for stopping by and GOOD LUCK!
Hugs,
CZ