The embedded audio at the bottom of my post offers an excellent overview of narcissism and psychopathy. If you've been using the Internet to learn about pathology, you'll recognize some of the psychologists, specialists, and/or authors being interviewed by Jari Chevalier. Most of them have popular books and websites.
These specialists are heroes to people like myself; such as Dr. Nina Brown who early on, offered advice to people who could not walk away from narcissistic relationships and for good reasons. I'm one of those people and it was crucial for me to learn about narcissism to protect myself from the narcissist's projections; and to protect the narcissistic person from my ignorance. Because you see, if you don't understand the narcissistic personality, your assumptions and expectations about human nature will drive you to frustration---not to mention the narcissist's frustration with you. That's why my sidebar has a little picture with the quote "Learn, unlearn, and relearn" and you're never too old to do that.
Besides, in our me-me-me society, understanding the narcissistic personality has become our civic duty. I'm kidding a little on that point but not too much. It's impossible (though some people fantasize about it) to get away from narcissists completely because they're your bosses, your parents, your child, your spouse, your neighbor, your doctor, your favorite local barrista. So I completely agree with Dr. Stout and Jari Chevalier: we need to find a humane way to deal with the problem of narcissism and psychopathy.
I hope everyone finds something useful in this audio presentation and if you want to talk about any of the points being discussed, feel free to leave a comment!
Hugs,
CZ
"Narcissists and Sociopaths have always been among us and yet recent research brings us new understanding of just what these serious emotional disabilities are; what causes them, how prevalent they are, and how studying them helps us to draw the connections between psyche and society.
Join host/producer Jari Chevalier as she talks with experts Dr. Nina W. Brown, Dr. Linda Martinez-Lewi, social worker Lisa Charlebois, Dr. Philip Zimbardo, Gabor Mate, MD, Dr. Sandy Hotchkiss, Dr, Scott Baum, and Dr, Martha Stout. Narration includes in-depth research and synthesis of the work of these and many researchers and healers.
Learn just how and why narcissists and sociopaths might be a bigger part of your life than you imagined. We focus on the many factors of unreality inherent in these personality structures and how they spin unreality into the world." ~Website Link
I'm in the middle of listening to this recording and needed to stop a moment for two reasons. I wanted to comment and I needed to come up for air.
ReplyDeleteBut first, let me just say that I have found you in just the last week. I've only just begun my recovery about a year ago and am new to narcissism and what it really is. I've been reading on line but your blog and the posts I've read so far have brought some real validation.
In spending some time here reading, I have reached a point of such mixed emotions that at times I have to stop and take a breath. What you write is so true it hurts. My stomach will knot up because I don't want this to be him. But it is...and I knew something was off but didn't want to admit it. I of course have my own issues. But then on the other hand there is this feeling of validation that makes me just wan to cry from relief as I can clearly see I am not alone. I am not the only one who has experienced this treatment while left reeling with so many questions.
And then there's this feeling of when things become more clear they also become more confusing. It's like the saying, "the more I learn the less I know."
Your articles have served to shed so much light and I am also questioning myself in relation to the n-continuum, which I've been doing anyway. It's a scary journey because the confusion gets to be so overwhelming it can be intolerable.
Anyway, I wanted to thank you for your blog and I'm very grateful that I stumble upon it.
The recording is very educational. Thanks for posting it.
Oh yeah (same anonymous as above) I forgot I was going to make a comment on part of the recording.
ReplyDeleteThe statement: "Most experts agree that the best strategy against narcissist and sociopaths is to avoid them completely."
My response and I had to laugh out loud, "Now you tell me! Thanks for the advice but where the heck were you, oh, three years ago."
My solution has been to avoid everyone. So I'm thinking the odds are on my side. ;)
I was ignorantly bliss only four years ago. I wish I had stayed there. Not only would my heart still be in tact I would feel safe in my own life.
But now that I've been affected I have the necessity to continue to learn. I will be checking out the resources you've provided including the experts who are in this recording.
Again, thank you for sharing your experience, knowledge and prolific writing talent.
You are so welcome, anonymous. When people say my writing has helped them, THEY help ME. Validation works both ways. When I write about the impact of narcissism on myself, my children and my extended family, reader's responses lift my heart off the ground, too. So thank you for reading and thank you for seeing 'yourself' in my experience. WE are not alone and yes, that is comforting.
DeleteYou wrote: "My solution has been to avoid everyone. So I'm thinking the odds are on my side. ;)"
Well...again, your reaction is like mine. ;) My first inclination was to hide in my house--safe and sound from Ns and Ps and cluster Bs. Then I realized that fear and distrust were the ground of pathological narcissism and I didn't wanna fertilize that crop! Since my world was spinning backwards anyway, I did the opposite and FORCED myself to connect with other people. I countered my 'unhealthy reactions' by joining a forum where people all over the world were writing about their lives, too.
We can make connections in our neighborhood but until we have healthy boundaries, we're better suited for anonymous connections. And that is why the WoN forum exists...it's a safer place to share our story than baring our souls at the next PTA meeting. Or to the grocery checker (i had a few emotional gushings that were embarrassing to me afterwards.)
So do not hesitate availing yourself of our message board---it's there because we're aware that people need community, especially when our self-esteem has plummeted to that of a grease spot. Don't even try to tell me you don't feel like a grease spot, either! Once the narcissistic relationship is bad enough for us to see it in all its futility, our self-worth has taken a serious beating. We don't trust ourselves, our perceptions, our worth; but the good news is: This Too Shall Pass. IF you make the effort. IF we put only half the effort into helping ourselves as we do in helping the narcissist, we'll be singing zippedy-doo-dah in no time. ;-P
I know it can be confusing at first because we're learning a new way to view human nature. But just stick with it, anonymous. I've been learning, unlearning and relearning for ten years now and it's not a completely joyless journey. There's much hilarity and fulfilling camaraderie along the way. We might even discover (much to our surprise) that we learn how to create even more deeply intimate and trusting relationships with other people AND ourselves, than we ever had before. That's the hope. That's the light at the end of the tunnel.
Hugs,
CZ
"Well...again, your reaction is like mine. ;) My first inclination was to hide in my house--safe and sound from Ns and Ps and cluster Bs. Then I realized that fear and distrust were the ground of pathological narcissism and I didn't wanna fertilize that crop!" Huh. I never thought of it that way. Thanks for this perspective. I'm working on it. Still feeling rather agoraphobic though. I like the idea of the online communication though and have been participating in that way.
Delete"I know it can be confusing at first because we're learning a new way to view human nature." Hahaha! That's quite the understatement isn't it? ;) I have been hyper-vigilant in watching everyone, even people I've known for a long time. I now have a tendency to doubt the word of just about everyone. But one thing I have learned, is that playing "close to the vest" is a the safest bet when meeting new people. I was a pretty open person and didn't think about the fact that even the most basic knowledge of me could be used to hurt me,(like being called a nasty name in grade school)especially by someone who (claimed to have) loved me. It's too bad I learned it the hard way. The sudden change in perspective is truly traumatic.
Oh yeah, and I had to laugh at the grease spot comment. I suppose that's a case of being funny 'coz it's true. However, I felt for the longest time like I'd been hit by a freight train going full speed. At this point I'm picking up my own bones that were left scattered all over the track, some needing to be glued back together. In addition there's still the anxiety of the expectation of getting slammed again.
It just takes time, anon...people are usually hyper-alert to betrayal in the beginning. They are (as was I) simply protecting themselves from a secondary trauma which is what a healthy psyche ought be doing, right?
DeleteWe eventually learn to be more cautious, creating what people refer to as "healthy boundaries". But it's not like there's a cookbook with a recipe for Healthy Boundaries! We kinda figure it out as we go. Being too restrictive in some cases and too liberal in others and eventually settling in with boundaries that 'fit' for our personality, our lifestyle.
What's difficult and this is why online communities can be a valuable resource---is feeling like a greasespot AND having healthy boundaries. Most of us are 'all over the place'---talking to the wrong people, not talking to the ones we should---making all kinds of mistakes on who to trust and who not to. It's just a mess. At least it was for me.
An online community allows us to moderate ourselves. We can type our little hearts out and we don't even have to 'send' the message. It's pretty hard to pour your heart out to the woman at the checkout counter and feel comfortable going back for groceries the next week. When we are broken and hurt, we really need 'safe' people for awhile.
And, the expectation of getting slammed again seems to 'fade' as time goes on and we've established solid relationships with other people. We may not have a romantic relationship at all (in fact, it's best if we don't for awhile). But we need a few 'safe' people in our lives while we restore our self-esteem, our self-worth, our DIGNITY. :)
Hugs,
CZ
"We may not have a romantic relationship at all (in fact, it's best if we don't for awhile)." True dat, my friend!
DeleteMy knee jerk is to say, "Never again." But whether I do or I don't, I need to put the recovery first. It helps to not WANT another relationship too. And being alone is once again beginning to become enjoyable again.
And yes I am thankful to the blogs out there and forums dedicated to recovery. Friends and family aren't exactly the most validating, as well meaning as I know they are.
I had one friend who seemed to know what to say and that's because she could relate. I thank God for her, still. I am not so sure I would have made it through as well as I did without her.
Anonymous Annie
That's wonderful to hear, Annie. People try to be supportive but some of the things they say make us feel worse. Who wants to hear that you'll marry again when your heart is broken and you don't believe it will ever stop hurting?
DeleteI have learned how to be a better friend to women because of my experience. I'm sure you're learning the same thing. Women's relationships with each other are incredibly strengthening and healing!
Hi CZ and Happy New Year! I listened to this tape and it was great to be able to put voices to so many of the people whose work has helped me understand my NFOO. This is a great resource (and streamed well on my balky internet connection!). One thought: although all the experts here lay out the dimensions of sociopathy and pathological narcissism, I think that there perhaps isn't enough attention paid to those narcissists and sociopaths who are "subclinical" or at least, who squeak by acting decent enough of the time for the damage they do to slip under the radar. Most ACoNs at least have parents who may not have matched the severity described in this broadcast, whose abuse was more subtle, and also socially sanctioned (children should be seen and not heard, etc). My own narc parents meet some aspects described here, but not others; or they meet all aspects but some only minimally. There are so many twists and turns, and the ingredients and ratios of pathology vary. The difficulty for ACoNs is that if our NP don't meet the full-fledge sociopathy benchmarks, we often feel we have no right to notice what they do to us. Or at least they say we don't. Perhaps many of us have narc parents and sibs and spouses or exes who are narcissistic enough to do damage to our self-esteem at levels not easy to point to. So although i think this is a fabulous resource, it's useful in the context of the many other resources you post on your website here, especially your own fantastic recent posts about narcissism, malignant and ordinary. I guess I think that your writing about the topic is even more useful than what these collected experts say. Not a criticism of the broadcast, which is great, but a booster for people to read your own posts on the topic, which are some of the best I've read anywhere. love CS
ReplyDeleteThank you, CS! Because I did not start this blog until deep into my recovery, you missed out on my 'hate phase' when I was overwhelmed by the enormity of my losses: the loss of my innocence, my naiveté, my blind faith in the 'little light of love' in every human being. I resisted giving up my belief that the only thing God's chilluns needed was luv, and if we luvvers luved the unluved, they would luv everyone back.
DeleteWhen we love a narcissist, we'll eventually be forced to question our assumptions and this is true for chosen or unchosen relationships. It's miserable grieving the loss of someone we loved---but it's traumatic grieving the loss of our favorite assumptions. *wink*
You wrote: "Most ACoNs at least have parents who may not have matched the severity described in this broadcast, whose abuse was more subtle, and also socially sanctioned..."
"Almost” pathological narcissism isn't as easy to describe as "pathological." Subclinical narcissism, for those who might be new to psyche-lingo, means that the narcissistic person doesn't meet the criteria for a personality disorder as it's described in the DSM (psychologist's mental disorders book).
Sub-clinical narcissists display what Dr. Nina Brown refers to as DNP: Destructive Narcissistic Pattern. And that says it all: Destructive. MOSTLY to OTHERS. Never forget it…destructive narcissists manage to sustain their façade protecting them from fault and blame. It’s other people who suffer.
It easier to spot clinical narcissists. There's little room for self-doubt when the narcissistic person does something anti-social---something we can put our finger on and say, "That's sick and wrong!" Like abusing their child, or abandoning their family, embezzling from their boss, or stealing someone's work and claiming it as their own. These are "things" we can say are wrong and thus point a finger of blame without criticism from others.
It would be safer writing about narcissism as a clinical disorder, such as the stories narrated on LoveFraud. There is little room to doubt 'who' the villain is in their stories.
What most people in narcissistic relationships do is ‘doubt themselves’, Once again, the burden of destructive narcissism is shifted to other people, hindering their lives while the narcissist jollies off to the neighborhood picnic where s/he’s received as a pillar of the community.
It's crazy-making.
But not for the narcissist. :(
Because there are far more subclinical ("almost") narcissists and psychopaths than clinical, the impact of their destructive behavior on other people is incalculable.
Hugs,
CZ
CZ, have you written any articles on subclinical narcissists? Love, Kara
DeleteHi Kara,
DeleteI haven't used the term 'subclinical' very often. I prefer the term "Narcissist”, even for people who not qualify for a clinical personality disorder. If someone displays narcissistic traits and behaviors, a lack of insight, and a rigid resistance/inability to change, then they qualify as "narcissists" even without the NPD label.
I don't see anything wrong with calling subclinical narcissists, narcissists. It makes learning easier if we call a duck a duck and stop worrying about a perfect diagnosis. If someone acts like a narcissist, they are one. They need to stop acting like one if they don't like being ducks…ha!
The majority of my writing describes 'subclinical' narcissism since this is where the majority of narcissists fit. As I mentioned to CS, this is also where the most damage is done. When I write about clinical narcissism, I usually refer to Malignant Narcissism (a mix of both narcissism and psychopathy). Fewer people fit this category.
And, I assume most people reading my blog are dealing with “subclinical” narcissists. When people have tangled with a malignant narcissist, they might be more inclined to read psychopathy sites. They usually accuse me of being “too soft” on narcissists because in their experience, there's not a whole lot of difference between a "N" and a "P". With malignant narcissists, people need to take a stricter stance than the narcissists most of us deal with in everyday life.
I'll look around the forum and my blog and add some links if they seem relevant! Great question, though...maybe I should write an article explaining the distinctions???
Hugs,
CZ
Thanks so much for the explanation CZ, I kind of guessed as much but was just curious whether you had written some specific articles about it. I do completely agree with your definition. I have a theory that the only difference between a psychopath and a narcissist is the setting and/or what stands between them and what they want. It seems to me that a lot of what they do is subjecte to what they can get away with. For instance, would Henry VIII have been able to have Anne Boleyn killed had he not been in a position of absolute power?
DeleteKara xxoo
"I have a theory that the only difference between a psychopath and a narcissist is the setting and/or what stands between them and what they want. It seems to me that a lot of what they do is subject to what they can get away with. For instance, would Henry VIII have been able to have Anne Boleyn killed had he not been in a position of absolute power? "
DeleteGood point, Kara. I recall the moment when realizing that it was in MY best interests to "let the N go" and stop interfering with what he wanted. He had to be extremely cruel and callous to achieve his goal. This may be why I encourage people to "Let Ns Go" before the situation escalates--I hadn't realized that before.
It is shocking how far a narcissist will go to get what s/he wants and you are right! Their self-serving behavior intensifies to the point of being "psychopathic." They will go to extremes when other, less narcissistic/psychopathic people, would back down. Normal people would be pissy as hell but they wouldn't cut their wife's head off.
For awhile, I thought my X was a psychopath or at least a malignant narcissist. But in review of his entire lifetime (we were together 34+ years), he didn't fit the P-profile. He definitely got worse after achieving status in a high-tech company where people applauded when he entered the room. There was no stopping his entitlement to any woman he wanted at that point. And there was no dearth of women willing to compete with me, either. ggggrrrrr....
Now I may be wrong-headed on this point but I think narcissism changes as people age and it changes according to the situation. In a situation of power, narcissistic grandiosity can lead to exploitative behaviors, entitlement, superiority, grandiosity. And in a situation of failure and/or loss, a narcissistic personality can become 'malignant' by increasing narcissistic defenses (that were ALWAYS there). Malignant narcissism may be intractable at the point, depending on the amount of damage they do to their lives.
In other words, unhealthy narcissism is pre-existent, fixed; but the degree of pathology changes---depending on the situation. I'd welcome input, even criticism of this theory if anyone has a different opinion.
It is why I feel compelled to talk about narcissism on an everyday 'normal' level because we CAN curtail a slip-slide into destructive behavior if we don't justify or feed our narcissism.
Narcissism feels good, it even feels awesome when you're in pain because narcissism is an escape from reality. But the end result of unchallenged narcissism is destructive to the self and to others.
I've kept this quote by my desktop for the past ten years:
"We must always hold truth, as we can best determine it, to be more important, more vital to our self-interest than our comfort. conversely, we must always consider our personal discomfort relatively unimportant, and indeed, even welcome it in the service for truth.
"Mental health is an ongoing process of dedication to reality at all costs." ~M.Scott Peck
And a few more rambling thoughts... *wink*
Hugs,
CZ
"unhealthy narcissism is pre-existent, fixed; but the degree of pathology changes---depending on the situation." Yes, I can see that. My father and my FIL are very similar in personality, except that because of their different upbringing and situation (i.e. what's acceptable in their social environment and background) my FIL is a lot more unhinged. I have no doubt that had my father had the same circumstances, he would behave the same as my FIL.
DeleteI hadn't thought about Narcissism being an escape from reality (like a modern and legal form of amphetamines); it makes a lot of sense, and like drugs: "the end result of unchallenged narcissism is destructive to the self and to others". That statement is worth its own post.
I once heard a talk in which the speaker explained that when a person lies, they are disconnecting from reality; the more they lie, the more disconnected from reality they become. I love the quote from your desktop (thanks for sharing :) and the quote from Scott Peck is my definition of mental health too: to the degree you are in touch with reality, you are mentally healthy.
(To specify: I don't consider depression a mental health issue anymore, but the result of a person being under emotional attack.)
"I once heard a talk in which the speaker explained that when a person lies, they are disconnecting from reality; the more they lie, the more disconnected from reality they become."
DeleteSpeaking of being worthy of its own post...wow. That is so true! Narcissists lie convincingly enough to disconnect other people from reality, too. You literally have to nail your feet to the floor to stay grounded.
Some people have quipped about narcissists: if their lips are moving, they're lying. I didn't 'grasp' the significance of that for a long time and then realized that the narcissistic persona (false self) is a confabulation.
Now I can see that lying and narcissism go together---both as "escapes from reality." The obvious contradiction between truth and fictioN IS when narcissism is evident to other people. We look at the narcissist and say, "Are you in there somewhere or are you on another planet 'cuz what you're saying is a lie."
And then you get confirmation that they are indeed narcissists because your confrontation (while not intentionally cruel) is perceived as a threat!
We all struggle with self-awareness. We all want to feel good about ourselves and nobody likes reality checks on their self-deception. But we don't wanna destroy the other person delivering the bad news.
Thanks for the 'drug' comment, too: Some people have compared the narcissistic self to an 'addiction' and it's very hard to let one's narcissism go. Other people will be relieved, but the narcissist feels a whole lot worse. Why would narcissists give it up? It's not hard to figure out why narcissism is seductive. We still believe we're the best singers in the world even after being rejected by a panel of experts.
We encourage people to be narcissistic, don't we?
Hugs,
CZ
"Narcissists lie convincingly enough to disconnect other people from reality, too. You literally have to nail your feet to the floor to stay grounded." No kidding...
DeleteThe best example I've seen on how they do this is the film "Gaslight".
"we don't wanna destroy the other person delivering the bad news." The difference with non-narcs is that if they're confronted with an unpleasant truth they might feel hurt even deny it but narcs always attack the messenger, even if the messenger is not even connected to the issue anyway.
Hugs,
Kara
This part..."the end result of unchallenged narcissism is destructive to the self and to others". This is true however if someone is challenging the narcissism of the narcissist, it can be most dangerous to the other. So in this case it just might be safer to leave it unchallenged and walk the heck away.
Delete"I think narcissism changes as people age and it changes according to the situation." That's because they see life, situations and therefore people as things to manipulate. It becomes a matter of self-survival only, with no consideration for anyone else's feelings, especially in a situation of failure. It's how they handle their fear.
Hi anonymous! Thanks for reading and commenting.
DeleteYou wrote: "if someone is challenging the narcissism of the narcissist, it can be most dangerous to the other. So in this case it just might be safer to leave it unchallenged and walk the heck away."
In the best of situations, we challenge our own narcissism. ;) Some people don't have the same degree of insight or self-awareness, though and challenging their narcissism (i.e.: bursting bubbles) is tricky.
You have to be empathic to their feelings and fears and you need to be sensitive and sensible about it. Because just as you say, someone with heavy narcissistic traits will NOT take kindly to bubble-bursting!
In many cases you are absolutely correct---the right thing to do is walk away.
About narcissism changing: Dr. Ronningstam suggests in her research that narcissism can improve with "corrective" experiences. On the other hand, it can get worse with "corrosive" experiences and this happens frequently at midlife. That maybe why midlife can be precarious for someone with narcissistic traits.
So a failure of some kind can trigger an avalanche of desperate attempts to regulate their flagging self-esteem. It is, in a way, a matter of self-survival even though other people usually don't understand what the narcissist is experiencing.
Hugs,
CZ
"even though other people usually don't understand what the narcissist is experiencing." Yes, this is true. And although I do NOW...after he is long gone, it doesn't help the pain go away entirely. But it does help to know it wasn't ALL me and I was certainly going down that road in my mind.
DeleteCZ, you wrote, "So a failure of some kind can trigger an avalanche of desperate attempts to regulate their flagging self-esteem." This has hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head in the experience close to home for me.
Thanks and hugs back.
Anonymous Annie
PS...I think I'm the only anonymous throughout this thread of comments but I thought maybe I should distinguish myself. :)
Ha! If you are the only anonymous on this thread, then you've been hugged to pieces today! Want another one?
DeleteHUGS,
CZ
LOL CZ... well at the point I wrote that I was, but not anymore, which I figured would happen sooner or later, since this is a rather good thread not to mention an awesome post with the recording. Plus it's probably nice to give a name when commenting on other posts too. But YES! Hugs are good and thank you. :)
Delete"I have a theory that the only difference between a psychopath and a narcissist is the setting and/or what stands between them and what they want. It seems to me that a lot of what they do is subjecte to what they can get away with. " Kara I think this is a great insight. And I agree with CZ that the distinctions between clinical and subclinical may not be even all that notable. For example, someone may meet 5 of 7 criteria(or is it 5 of 9?); but to my mind, if they meet more than half the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, and meet it regularly (ie, character traits, not transient behavior), they are narcissists. Malignant narcissists and sociopaths often shade into each other. But sometimes someone is just vile to particular individuals who trigger them.
ReplyDeleteAs much respect as I give our psychiatric community, there is no perfect diagnosis. A malignant narcissist to one psychologist might be a 'wounded widdle birdie' to another. Diagnosis is a bit of an art form, or so people say.
DeleteHaving been involved in the therapeutic world for over a decade with my nephew, I can say that there's no such thing as "perfect objectivity". Asperger disorder to one psychologist is bipolar to another. That might sound bizarre however, that's what happened over a decade of therapy.
The thing about Aspergers is that 'what you see is what you get'. Recognizing my nephew's autism should not have been that difficult and it certainly shouldn't have taken ten years before an accurate diagnosis was made!!
With the narcissist, "what you see is NOT what you get" and there's LOTS of room for manipulation and pretense when therapists meet narcissists. And so, what people in N-relationships are experiencing must be considered adequate for making life choices. We can't afford to wait for a person in a position of authority to give us an official diagnosis. We can't abdicate ourselves of responsibility for making healthy choices. WE are the ones in relationship with them after all.
I listened to another podcast on the above-linked website focused exclusively on Dr. Martha Stout. Maybe I'll have time to write up a post about it today because she discusses distinctions between narcissists and psychopaths/sociopaths. It has been confusing understanding the difference however-----the bottom line is:
Does this Person HURT me and others?
We should base our decisions on the answer to that question whether or not that person qualifies as a NPD, a DNP, a ASpD, a Malignant Narcissist or a rat-bazturd-get-out! What matters in the end is Stopping The Abuse, the misery, the pain. If the narcissist cannot stop him or herself, then the right thing to do is END the relationship---official diagnosis or not.
p.s. Dr. Paula Caplan suggests in her book, "They Say You Are Crazy" that two psychologists observing the same person at the same time, agreed just over half of the time (.61 for Axis II).
I don't see how this can ever be an exact science as long as diagnoses are done through observation or even long term therapy.
DeleteTherapists are humans as well, who bring their own emotional lessons learned and unlearned to the table. Their perspectives are different too, just like any human. Their experiences, even if they happened to be duplicate, which we know is impossible even if siblings, are all completely different. Leaving all of us with different "takes" on all situations.
It is definitely on us, society really but as individuals to understand ourselves and our own boundaries, listen to our bodies/intuition and leave/end the relationship when we feel that nagging gnaw that says, "Something isn't right."
This isn't to lay blame on the person being hurt, just acknowledging and agreeing with you, CZBZ and your bottom line: "Does this Person HURT me and others?"
Realizing who you can trust to give the benefit of the doubt to and who really doesn't deserve that is more than half the battle. Being secure in one self, listening to "the gut" and not letting the mind argue with it, can really help with sorting these two groups out.
"I don't see how this can ever be an exact science as long as diagnoses are done through observation or even long term therapy. "
DeleteWell that is why psychologists try very hard to tighten DSM criteria for greater accuracy. An accurate diagnosis makes ALL the difference is proper treatment! This has been our experience over many years of therapeutic involvement. Once the ACCURATE diagnosis was made, progress was phenomenal. The therapist knew how to help my nephew and as a family, we learned everything we could to improve our relationships with him.
We have one of those fairy tale stories and one day I'll write about it on my blog. It is just amazing what an accurate diagnosis can do because finally, that person is getting the RIGHT treatment. It's akin to being given the wrong medication for a physical illness...you can't get better until doctors know what's making you sick!
Hugs,
CZ
"It is just amazing what an accurate diagnosis can do because finally, that person is getting the RIGHT treatment."
DeleteI completely agree. I am really happy for your nephew and family. It can be so frustrating, also in cases where someone without a degree knows what's up but can't get a diagnosis, therefore can't get to the right treatment.
I think this can be dangerous too because the client can walk out of therapy feeling even more frustrated and discouraged than when they walked in. This pretty much defeats the purpose and can create even more problems.
When I made my comment too, my mind was also in the track of narcissism, therefore thinking about how they don't go to therapy and if they ever do they don't stick to it.
Hope to read that (true) fairy tale soon. :)
Anonymous Annie.
Hi CZBZ-
ReplyDelete"I listened to another podcast on the above-linked website focused exclusively on Dr. Martha Stout."
Can you supply the link? I looked for it on the site, but wasn't able to find it. Thanks.
Oh dear! That wasn't easy to find, was it? Go to this webpage:
Deletehttp://livinghero.com/
and click on the left sidebar: "Quick Links to All Shows"
Dr. Martha Stout is listed on this page (Episode 31).
Thank you so much CZBZ. That's a link to bookmark.
DeleteAnonymous Annie
"It is just amazing what an accurate diagnosis can do because finally, that person is getting the RIGHT treatment." Diagnosing myself as the partner of a narcissist has been key to my survival because now i can get proper treatment! I tried applying the 12 steps program thinking he was a workaholic but realized he never was going to 'bottom out'. I tried meditation, couples therapy, upgrading my own interests, spiritual counselling, psycotherapy, attending CoDA, reading up on every possible marriage communication 'problem', or forgiving him for possibly having ADHD, all of the usual tactics, but until I read about narcissism specifically, nothing 'worked'. It was like banging my head against a wall. Cycles of confusion that resulted in me becoming that'grease spot' you talk about. I've wanted to leave for years and only managed it two months ago. Your website has been a constant well spring of sustenance. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about something my daughter asked me since I left the N: 'When did he stop being fun?" What I've realized surprised me: that I was the fun in our relationship!. He was drawn to the fun I could provide, went along with it and seemed to increase it. (It was a second marriage for both of us) But once he had me (pregnant)the fun stopped and the diminishing began. Once he became successful it got waaay worse. I couldn't understand why he was not happy when we had everything- when he got everything.
It is so difficult to fathom - and that is why the accurate diagnosis- for myself- was so important. Anonymous Alice
That's a very interesting point, Alice---that you realized there was no 'bottoming out' for the workaholic narcissist. That there would likely never be a point when he would believe his life was unmanageable because of his own issues, not anyone else's! That's quite brilliant so thanks for making that point!
DeleteThe ONLY thing that freed me from trying too hard was stumbling on information about NPD. Once I learned about, and ACCEPTED a reality I certainly resisted, there was hope for my family. It wasn't just me that suffered. It was all of us.
We learned about narcissism, not to pathologize and excuse ourselves---but to UNDERSTAND and in a way, forgive someone we might never have forgiven. I think that will make sense to anyone who's loved a narcissist and been forced to 'let go' of him or her because the pain was too great, the insults to our integrity, destructive.
Like you, I could not fathom why my husbaNd was not happy---why he wasn't satisfied with our life. After all, he had achieved everything we'd been working for for thirty--plus years. I now realize that the realization of his dream was meaningless. What he needed to keep him going, was the pursuit. Instead of being pleased with his life work, his family, his extended family and all the bonding experiences we had as a family, he felt empty--bereft of purpose, bored.
This of course, had nothing to do with his family although he tried to make it so. ;-P In truth, I might still be blaming myself today without learning about AND accepting what psychologist's have taught us about the narcissistic family.
Thanks for being here and sharing your story with me.
Hugs,
CZ
"What's difficult and this is why online communities can be a valuable resource---is feeling like a greasespot AND having healthy boundaries"
DeleteWow, I guess I am thrilled to be responded to! By one of my heroes "CZ"! After 20 years of under-responses or no responses from the N, the online conversations I've read and now actually contributed to are life savers because they provide words for a kind of unreality that is beyond description to people in the Real World who haven't had to deal with the False Self of the N.
I think I am rambling now, but just want to say Thanks CZ! I am so glad to be part of a conversation! Having a conversation was practically impossible with the N! yours truly, Alice