December 03, 2009

Ns & Ws: It's all about Narcissistic Supply

Daughters of Edward Darly Boit by John Singer Sargent

It was tough choosing a title for this essay about Ns and Ws (Needs versus Wants). Rather than make up my mind, here ya go. You can choose one of three options:
1- Ns and Ws: It's all about narcissistic supply 
2- Why does the narcissist give in to children's WANTS and deny their NEEDS? 
3- How come one parent buys socks and the narcissistic parent buys tickets to Disneyland?
The answer is easy. If you know about narcissists. Narcissists do things to get attention from others. They bend over backwards for adoration. They practically beg for validation. The kicker is that narcissists never get enough approval to satisfy an insatiable need for attention. Even bad attention serves as 'narcissistic supply' though most everyday narcs would prefer adoration if they could maintain their good guy image well enough. The point being that maintaining an image is a lot of work and pretending to be a Good Guy is exhausting. If the good guy image crumbles despite their pretenses, well, the narcissist will become a really, really bad guy instead. As long as people are talking about narcissists' notoriety, that's good enough to maintain a sense of self.

Narcissistic Supply

I can't explain the answer as to why narcissists give children what they WANT and deny their NEEDS without offering a definition of Narcissistic Supply, a term used by Otto Kernberg (see Resources) to describe how narcissist's regulate self-esteem by garnering externalized attention from others.

We, the externalized objects, serve as narcissistic supply by reassuring narcissists that they are loved, important, the center of our attention, adored, eulogized, deserving of approbation; that they, the narcissists who consider themselves the Center of the Universe, are on the tip of our tongues and at the top of our minds every second of our worthless existence. That we are such longlasting objects we could call ourselves Bosch mix-masters. Some mixers only last ten years, but some of us last like forever before we're finally worn-out.

I'm a tad sarcastic this morning...forgive me. Now and then i get pissed off about everything narcissists demand from others without a second of gratitude or appreciation on their part. Just entitlement and the sneer of their superiority over others. 


An Example of Needs versus Wants

Here's how Needs versus Wants works in a typical narcissistic home like the one I gave my children. Lord help me. I knew not what I was doing:

Narcissists hate boredom. They resist responsibility. They dislike being taken for granted, or EXPECTED to live up to the parental role they use as a ruse for securing narcissistic supply from people who believe they are self-sacrificing for the good of their children. Narcissists lack tolerance for a parent's care-taking responsibilities, like knowing kids need protective clothing when it's -30 degrees outside.

When someone says, "Hey, dude. Your kids don't have woolen socks!" narcissists fear their image as the perfect parent is being threatened by their neglect. Their undeniable neglect triggers shame. Their shame triggers fear. Their fear triggers rage. They are worried that they might not be able run for PTA president if their image of parental perfection is tarnished by damnable needy kids.

One thing to remember is that narcissists react to shame like Superman to kryptonite. The big S on their chests begins to fade. So instead of correcting their negligence and self-centeredness, they project their shame onto the needy child who has faultlessly embarrassed the narcissistic parent with his or her holy socks. The narcissist's anger increases when the vulnerable child begins to cry, apologizing for wearing holes in her socks. The weeping child who deserves to be loved by parents who meet her needs without obliging her to recognize her needs. Children don't know what they need and they can't know what they really need until they're grown up. It is not the child's responsibility to tell their parents what they need. It is the adult's responsibility to know and provide for their needs. In the narcissistic family, roles are reversed. Children meet their parent's needs, not the reverse. And the narcissistic parent NEEDS to be the PTA President to inflate her pompous grandiosity which regulates her fragile self-esteem.

So what happens in a typical narcissistic home?

Narc-daddy goes home and blames his kids for having holes in their socks and bringing shame upon the family name. Then narc-daddy tells his wife to get off her fat arse and buy those kids some socks because if she were doing what she should be doing as the all-nurturing, self-sacrificing, perfect Madonna, he would not have to tell her his kids needs socks. He wouldn't have been subjected to public embarassment or have his authority questioned if everyone in the family would just get with the program and take care of themselves instead of depending on HIM to take care of THEM.

So.....Mama buys the socks. She spends all day with the kids trekking from one store to another looking for the best deal on white cotton tube socks since her budget is limited now that she's saving for a down payment on a home. Boy, are the kids ever excited and happy to spend time with Mom.

NOT!

In fact, the kids are downright miserable and give Mom a horrible time in Walmart because they WANT her to buy them toys, not socks. They beg her to buy Capris Sun for their lunchboxes, not fresh juice from real oranges. They WANT her to buy shoes with fancy logos, and pants with celebrity labels that they really don't need, and all in all, mama has a rough day keeping her self-esteem in tact when her kids are telling her how deprived they are and how she is ruining their lives because she won't let them have clothes and junk food like all the normal kids have.

When Mom and her kids get home, she has done the right thing for her children because now they have socks and tough snow boots and pants to cover their behinds and all on a limited budget. Yes, it's stressful being a parent who meets children's needs and denies their wants. Or a parent who values teaching her children self-discipline through delayed gratification by earning their wants---instead of expecting Mama to be a fairy godmother on a leprechaun's budget.

That night, the whole fam-damily is sitting around the dinner table eating homemade bread 'cuz it's cheaper and the labor is 'free'. They're also dining on chicken noodle soup because the bones were leftover from last night's meal. It's a long process cooking stock and rolling out noodles but Mama likes to prove she's pulling her share of the parental load. She consoles herself with the thought that the family's unhappy meal cost less than five bucks but it was far more nutritious than the happy meal her kids begged for at McDonald's. Then out of the blue, narc-daddy announces he just bought four tickets to Disneyland.

Suddenly, the kids are hugging him like he's an All-You-Can-Eat-For-Free-Burger-King. And mama sits there wondering why she's so angry she could bust the man in his chops. She's a mess of confusing emotions because she's excited to go to Disneyland, but in the back of her mind, she's figuring out how to reduce the grocery bill just enough to make the vacation feasible. "Tickets are one thing," she thinks to herself. "Gas and motels and restaurants are another."

Give a kid a bowl of nutritious soup that took hours for Mama to prepare and they won't even say "Thank you" or "Yummy!" But give the kid a Tootsie Roll Sucker and talk about adoration, approval and applause. And don't forget: attention. Kids'll be all over that narcissistic parent like ants on a lollipop.

And the socks? Well, mom always buys socks and they need socks and so basically getting socks is boring and expected. Neither of my kids ever shouted "I love you!" when throwing a new package of tube socks on their beds. And when it came to buying underwear, t-shirts, and other necessities of life, shopping with kids was a CHORE. It was a JOB. It was a RESPONSIBILITY. Unlike the joy of taking kids to Toys R Us, or surprising them with a trip to a fast food drive-in. Restaurants, I'm proud to say, my kids only visited once in a blue moon.

Now, the only reason I understand the difference between Ns and Ws is because my adult daughter confessed one day, that she and her brother figured out early on that if they NEEDED something, they asked me.

If they WANTED something, they asked Dad.

I pondered her 'sibling manipulation confession' before releasing myself from guilt about not giving my kids designer jeans and Oscar Meyer sandwiches. Misplaced guilt about denying them what they WANTED because we could not afford it and besides, I had believed that a little deprivation would build character. Or so my parents taught me.

"You always gave me what I needed," my daughter tells me now. She's a grown-up and it has taken thirty-five years for her to hug me for giving her tube socks, rough and tumble snow boots, and homemade bread baked from scratch. It has taken thirty-five years to WAIT for her approval, adoration, admiration and applause.

Waiting has been worth every second. 

Hugs,
CZ

Resources

About the painting: Sargent's Daughters authored by Erica Hirschler. You can purchase this fascinating book here: Amazon.com link

Otto Kernberg, Severe Personality Disorders. Page 193: "People with narcissistic personalities tend to be inordinately envious of other people, to idealize some people, from whom they expect narcissistic supplies, and to depreciate and treat with contempt those from whom they do not expect anything (often their former idols). Their relations with others are frequently exploitative and parasitic. Beneath a surface that is often charming and engaging, one senses coldness and ruthlessness. They typically feel restless and bored when no new source feeds their self-regard. Because of their great need for tribute and adoration from others, they are often considered to be excessively dependent. But they are, in fact, unable to depend on anyone because of a deep underlying distrust and devaluation of others and an unconscious ‘spoiling’ of what they receive related to conflicts about unconscious envy.”





32 comments:

  1. Wow, once again I can so relate to all of this. You had me laughing, along with the recognition of the crazymaking that we go through, through all of it. I used to cry when I read things like this, but now I see it all for what it was.

    It's such a terrible yucky life. I'm glad we're both out!

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  2. I wanted to add that my ex-husband took us to Disneyland to save our marriage. Like you said, he looked good to the kids, but it did nothing for the marriage. I had 3 small children to take care of in the heat, while he made all the decisions while we were there, where to go and what do while, including him sitting by the pool with a tropical drink in his hand, while I did all of the work.

    The only thing it did for the marriage, was propel me to know that I wanted out someday.

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  3. When we look back on the relationship after restoring our 'sanity', it IS rather funny to see how hard we worked to keep the relationship together.

    I've cried my share of tears, too...buckets of 'em. But like you, the grief and suffering passes. NOT SOON ENOUGH...but it passes.



    "I wanted to add that my ex-husband took us to Disneyland to save our marriage." ~Anon

    Are You Serious? HE took you to DISNEYLAND to save the marriage?? ROFL...excuse me for rolling on the floor laughing, but that's priceless.

    What does marriage to a narcissist and Disneyland have in common?

    1-They both cost way too much money

    2-The roller coaster ride makes ya nauseas just like the narcissist who turns your life upside-down

    3-Disneyland and marriage to a narc are both "Escapes from reality".

    4- The fun is only temporary...usually way too short for the cost of admission. ha!


    Thanks for posting! It's nice to hear that my experiences resonate with other people's experiences! We're all kinda in this together, aren't we?


    Hugs,
    CZBZ

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  4. It's like receiving the training of an addict and like an addict, the only way to quit is to go nc. Patterns bespeak themselves--the envious, the depressive, the voiders, the needy, are all the natural compliments to the giver and stabilizer of N parent(s). Dating is trecherous since the N is a great people reader and will seek the giver, compliment their humble nature, take, take, take, until there's nothing left and still reach out grab more! They never let go of 'their' supply. It's up to you to see the evil 'drag-on!'

    Don't be fooled, the N is on the same continuum as the S, and if you've been 'trained' by an N family, you will be unwittingly be the perfect source for alcholics, sex addicts, drug addicts, child-like men & women, N's, and S's. Hell hath no meaning until you've dated an S which is a sum of all of the above!

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  5. Daughter of a Narcissist Father:

    CZ - what a touching story you told here.

    I can sooo relate.

    I'm in my forties, and for the first time 'reaching out' and really connecting with my mom this year. Before, we had a 'triangular' relationship with my dad. It was weird. I was always more 'aligned' with my dad, even though my mom and I were 'good'.

    It took going into a business with my dad to find out what he is: a full blown 'N'.

    Pushed aside and trampled over, I talked to a counsellor and she said - near our last session: do you have any unfinished business with your parents. Tears welled up in me, and I said: my MOM.

    My mom is now frail and older. I visit with her one day a week and we spend a few hours together. We talk, laugh and share meaningful things or just hang out and do a few errands. My dad doesn't mind (before he would have been 'jealous' as he likes to be the center), because now she is needing too much from him - so I 'indirectly' support him (in HIS mind).I don't care, because at least he does not 'block' it.

    My mom and I have this new found 'pure' relationship. She does not understand he is an 'N' and seems to adore him.
    Each hour I've had with my mom has been a gift of God for both of us.
    Thankfully, we've connected in time - and her sister is more than thrilled!!!! As she's seen it all along.
    I'm still dealing with my 'N' dad who certainly has spoiled me over a lifetime - but not with emotional gifts.
    This is the 'end' of our family story ...

    Love to you all,

    Midlife Mom

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  6. I was lucky to wake up in the middle of the night today because I had trouble sleeping to find this article online. What a GREAT article!!! This really sums up the craziness, cruelty and serious personality disorder of a narcissist. THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS ARTICLE. You are a true blessing to all of us who are healing or who have suffered in a relationship with a narcissist. I have just broke up with a narcissistic guy of 4 years nothing but pain, tears and drama. The first day was rough but every week that goes by I am getting stronger and the tears have now stopped falling...yay!!! It's sobering and the more I read up on stuff like this, I feel comforted that "this too shall pass" and I will come out stronger, healthier and happier through this grueling learning experience. So thanks again for sharing your heart and insights to the rest of us who are along the same journey of life. GOD BLESS YOU CZBZ!!! We love you.

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    1. Well thank you so much! I hope God blesses me and you and all of us! I even hope God blesses the narcissists in our world who without some kind of divine intervention, will continue hurting trusting people.

      Even though I write from the 'victim's viewpoint on my blog, I have deep compassion for narcissists, especially the self-aware narcissists who cannot 'fix' their internal pain.

      I do, however, apportion my compassion accordingly. Me first. Narcissist later. ha!

      What it basically came down to is this: The narcissist WANTS my compassion...but I NEED my compassion. *grin*


      Hugs,
      CZ

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  7. Thank you so much for posting this. I feel like you have just summarized my entire marriage to my N including his relationship with our kids. He only does the fun stuff with the kids while I find myself doing everything else-with no thanks. It took me a long time to pinpoint exactly what was happening (and with the help of an excellent therapist). I kept thinking that I should be happy that he is doing fun with the kids-and besides everyone else thinks he is soooo wonderful, why didn't I? Well, it was mainly because I was left holding the bag while at the same time begging for love and support. Complete crazy-making. I must say now that I understand what is happening, it is much easier to have compassion for him (he is also the son of an N). And, it's easier to keep Giving the Needs to my kids even without thanks. I must say that my daughter is getting old enough to need more emotional support, and I am more than happy to offer that to her and she is happy to receive it. She definitely knows who she can depend on when she "needs" something.

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    1. I am soooooooo glad this article helps you understand your experience, anonymous! The narcissistic relationship IS crazy-making and that's what keeps us powerless and confused.

      Once you 'get it' though, once you put the effort into understanding pathological narcissism, then you can empower yourself by making better decisions.

      Keep meeting those kids 'needs'. They will GET IT one day, too!

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  8. Thank you, CZ. We are actually in the middle of a divorce (I think). In the last year I have gotten much stronger and finally saw an attorney. After he found out about it, Of course he actually wanted the divorce and is now pursuing it, at least that's what he tells me. I have decided to just let him do whatever it is he iso going to do-I have FINALLY gotten to the point where I can see my life without him and it feels good (only took 7 years). I am not pushing a divorce for financial reasons and because he desires 50/50 parenting (for no other reason I can think other than his image and the fact that my toddler son and daughter LOVE all of the fun stuff they do and give him lots of attention). He cannot stand being bored/spending time at home, so he packs them up and takes them to do FUN stuff. Forget about a routine, budget, or anything else! Or he packs them up to take them to one of his enmeshed family members' houses (a whole different story) so that he can hang out and soak up their attention while somebody else entertains the kids. Fortunately, I am much better at taking care of myself emotionally, so I can stay and be with my kids, get myself in better financial shape, etc. I worry about them being in a house without me because he doesn't clean, do laundry, or anything else so boring! I have repeatedly asked him to move out - he then tells me to move out even though he didn't want to buy our house and my parents do a lot of the maintenance. I do not have the resources to just up and leave and I don't want to. My daughter loves our neighborhood, I love our house and my neighbors, and she is set to start school next year. I was a total codependent and afraid that he would leave which is why we've been together so long. Any minor dispute would end when he told me that we needed to divorce. I quickly learned to keep my feelings and those silly needs inside! Until I finally believed him when he told me I was crazy, perceived things wrong, overreacted, etc., and got help! Thank god I did. Turns out, I was pretty normal and my journey to recovery from all of this began ;) thank you so much for maintaining your blog, and posting your story. There are so many of us out there who are still in denial/or still in the fog about what is happening. Best of luck to you.

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    1. It only took 7 years for you feel confident about your life without him? Wow...give yourself a hug. ha! You are doing fantastic working through your fear and anxiety as a mother with young children...don't pathologize yourself too much. Mothers are vulnerable when they have small children---of course we're worried about handling things by ourselves. Some of your fear is absolutely NORMAL.

      There's also the small fact that narcissists continually undermine their partner's confidence and his/her growth. They might do that in direct attacks that drain your spirit but more likely, they undermine and undercut their partner to keep her feeling dependent and weak. You'll be surprise, I can honestly promise you this, when you no longer have a narcissist criticizing you, or proving you're a substandard specimen of humanity.

      You will feel better about yourself. You will be a better mother. A better lover. A happier person. Most of us say later (even though we didn't want the divorce), that life is soooooo much easier, we didn't realize how hard our lives used to be. I wish this for you and I hope this for you.

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  9. I am the sock buying parent. Every word of this makes sense to me.

    Last month my boy needed new socks. On the same day I bought those my abusive ex gave my son an old games console he had been dangling in front of the poor boy for months.

    My son hugged me when he saw the new school socks in his drawer. It made my day.

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    1. Hi Sock-Mom,

      ha! I'm always touched when parent's write comments like yours. Thank goodness so many narcissists have partnered with empathic, responsible, nurturing and wise people.

      And I'm pleased that my article made sense to you.

      Three cheers for Sock-Moms! Yay, yay, and YAYA!

      hugs,

      CZ

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  10. My boy is now at an age where he understands that I'm the provider , I think he knows how hard I work to be 'sock mom'. Also that my love is unconditional and without silly strings.

    I think he also appreciates that I may be permanently broke ( I work but my ex pays nothing towards our two)but I make time for them. Simple things like a family board game tournament and DVD and popcorn day are simple but fun.

    Sock mom x

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    1. I re-read this thread when Anonymous replied below today and remember promising to write an essay on Sock Moms! I am such a forgetful ninny sometimes!!

      My desktop has a new sticky note reminder and I will get to this as soon as possible. It's a great idea and I appreciate your conversation with me!

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  11. What is it with N's and Disney World/Land? My X-N friend took his 2nd, much younger wife to DW for their honeymoon....They are like children that want and buy things they can't afford....no such thing as waiting for anything....it will be interesting to see how long this marriage lasts...

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    1. Well ya just never know, Anonymous. Sometimes I take a serious leap of logic and admit there may well indeed be soulmates. Maybe on a psychological level, midlife soulmates find one another and whoever they have to kill to get in bed together is the price they must pay to fulfill their extraordinary destiny. hahaha

      It's not too surprising that Disneyland would be their honeymoon of choice keeping the Fantasy alive. As some have quipped, "Narcissism is an escape from reality." Where better to enclose one self in a bubble and gratify childish impulses than Disneyland?

      It's miserable to watch if you're the one who got 'dumped' so these two retrogrades could be together. I hope you're doing fine and well and have come to peace with what happened in your life. Nothing has cured my ailing heart quite as much as understanding 'human development' (or the lack thereof, ha!)

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  12. Thanks CZ...I'm doing much better now going NC....My x "N" friend and I never dated...I was solely NS for him at work. I do know what he did to his 1st wife (of only a few years) through a friend of hers. She is having a difficult time still after their divorce...wondering what went wrong. He cheated on her of course and did the whole D&D to her. Started dating right away after (probably before) divorce, got new girl pregnant and married again all within a year.

    I think you're right though, the new wife (in early 20's) and he are probably better together as far as emotional maturity (or immaturity) goes!

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    1. Most people can't understand the enormity of the Narcissistic Relationship and how it undermines people's sense of reality, their self-confidence, their worthiness and competence. A pathological narcissist (high-functioning, thus hard to spot) can reduce a confident person to a groveling mess in only a short time. This applies to everyone----even an office co-worker who was "intimate" with the narcissist.

      Intimate as in "a listening ear. A supporter. A believer who took their side because we believed their version of reality." Anyone who is a kind person with a desire to do the right thing, is putty in the narcissist's hands. That's because narcissists are:

      Persuasive Blamers

      I've been thinking about this a whole lot the past two weeks. People believe narcissists because they are Persuasive Blamers and their victims aren't! We're still trying to figure out what happened to us---why things went so wrong, so fast and without our awareness.

      I am very hopeful for people with narcissistic personalities when they want to change. However, I am absolutely and totally committed to helping their victims get OFF the damn floor and realize they are worthy and wonderful and truly the 'salt of the earth.'

      I have seen too many people get stuck in the N-sanity, blaming themselves when they shouldn't. And why??

      Because narcissists are persuasive blamers.

      Gosh...looks like my pent-up anger needs to start a new article for my blog! hahaha!

      Thanks for writing back. I love talking with readers.

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  13. Thank you for writing me back and for saying "intimate as in a listening ear and supporting".... that was me! Just trying to be his friend was draining, confusing and frustrating. All conversations were about him and what he was doing or buying, etc. I couldn't even imagine what living with him or being in a romantic realtionship with him would be like. Unfortunatley, he is such a big flirt that people at work thought we were having an affair...we were not, but as in your post...Gossip, Rumors and Smear Campaigns..this happend to me. It got so bad I had to end our friendship which of course did not go over well (NI) with him. But he just wouldn't stop with the flirting even after I asked him to stop (no boundary regard or respect).
    Anyways, I had to learn the hard way too about N's and their traits.

    I have also learned more about myself and am more cautious of people with N personalities (of course they are drawn to me and I them) but I'm trying harder to have better boundaries myself.

    This blog has been a great sorce of info. and comfort!
    Thanks again CZ!

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    1. You are so welcome! I was, and continue to be, vulnerable to narcissistic people. It's gonna be that way for the rest of my life because I don't wanna change my naturally trusting and open-hearted personality! This is the person I want to be when I'm old as in way older than I am today. ha!

      And so---instead of viewing cynicism, hard-heartedness, suspicion of any and all, protecting myself with hardline defenses indistinguishable from narcissism, and ONLY thinking of me and taking care of me, I have decided to continue being 'me' but with better and healthier boundaries. Just like yourself.

      My problem, the way I see it now, wasn't being generous and empathic. My problem was NOT knowing HOW to get out of the narcissistic relationship. You always feel so darn guilty when they lay on the blame, the plea for pity---the you-are-the-only-person-who-can-help-me ploy.

      I hope that you and I and all the other good listening ears on our planet, will recognize our value and worth. And when someone doesn't respect OUR boundaries, appreciate OUR time, reciprocate OUR kindness, that we'll remove ourselves from the relationship before we get hurt.

      I am a work in progress on that point, Anon--and I wish you the Very Best, too!

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  14. I love your writing. It has saved me from sinking numerous times.
    I just discovered 'Games Narcissists Play' forum here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,8838.0.html

    and want to share this with you. It has such practical insights, especially if you are in the middle of one of their games- or suspect you are, the nuances described here, can straighten out your perceptions.

    THANK YOU so much!!

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    1. You are so WELCOME! I love that people love my blog because it comes from a loving place in my heart and I try very hard to write something worth reading. Topics that will help people deal with the N-relationship. You are in serious trouble if you don't understand narcissism and you're married to one. Or your sibling is one. Or your parent. We really need to know more about managing 'our' reactions to narcissists and I hope my blog offers realistic advice because as you can see, I'm still learning.

      I will definitely check out the thread you linked, Anon. I'm quite familiar with the Cassiopaea group but haven't read this thread (or perhaps I've forgotten! That happens, too!)

      Thank you!
      CZ

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  15. Hi CZBZ, I am recently divorced from my ex 'N' husband and am working very hard to raise our 4 yr old daughter alone. He claimed financial losses and still managed to get shared custody of our child without having to provide any maintenance at all or bear any costs for the child. He even managed to retain the family home to himself since I ran away last year with our child in order to protect us from him.
    And while i'm struggling to make ends meet and cater to my daughter's 'needs' he threw her a birthday bash complete with a puppet show and caricaturists. No doubt my daughter was thrilled and was gushing about the whole experience.
    I am so glad to have found your blog and to see that my experiences are similar to so many others. I intend to read all the articles you have written and also hope to learn what i can do to bring about a balance in my child's life.

    Thank you so much for writing this article and for this whole blog.

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  16. Thank you, CZBZ, for your wonderful writing style and your exceptional insights particularly into the narcissistic personality. I, too, like so many of you found myself entrenched in a relationship/marriage with a narcissist which took a long time and a lot of heartache to discover. Recently we managed to mediate our divorce and are now currently in couples therapy; he says that he wants to reconcile even though his N sabotaging behaviors propelled us into a divorce to begin with. Finding your blog and reading your articles has been healing and informative...your writing/insights is so spot on and I can relate on so many levels. The last couple of years for me has been a kind of hell...trying to figure out how my caring, handsome, sensitive, ambitious, observant, and extremely intelligent husband had morphed into the jekyl and hyde persona of the N who I could no longer stand...who was toxic to be around...who after 8 years of marriage could look me in the face and lie to me despite my having the facts...and I had to ask myself...how did I get here? And as I began to understand narcissism and NPD through therapy and personal research, I can't say that I felt hopeful or comforted about the "future" of my realtionship with my N...but I can say that I feel stronger, wiser, validated, empowered but still sadened by the collosal loss of our marital dream together. We have a 3 1/2 year old son between us and my hope is that he inherits the best of both of us, and there is a lot of best of both of us, and that he possess empathy and be able to share great love.

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    1. Hi Anonymous and Thank you both or reading and for finding something useful in my writing. My hope is to help other people make better choices in their lives. Not knowing about personality disorders made my road far more destructive than it needed to be. If you don't understand what's happening to your partner, you won't understand what's happening to yourself. Like what you are experiencing right now in your marriage with a husbaNd who has 'split reality', casting you in the bad woman role and himself as the good guy. That is absolutely maddening and crazymaking if you don't understand the narcissistic psyche.

      I hope you will revisit my blog and update me on your marriage counseling. I would love to tell people joint therapy can help. The only caution (which you've likely read about already) is to be careful about what you reveal to your husband in case you aren't able to reconcile differences and 'fix' your marriage. So please come back from time-to-time because I'd love love love to hear from you.

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  17. Hello, again, (I am the 'divorced' woman currently in couples therapy with my N). Thank you for responding to my post. I just wanted to say further that I like your writing because you do not get lost in your personal story very much...like riding an emotional wave that gets away from its point or source. Your writing seems rich in personal experience and research. I read a book titled: Narcissistic Lovers which I found to be very good (even though the photo on the cover gave the impression that the book was going to be somewhat trite or cheesy) but it wasn't, it was really very powerful in discussing pathalogical narcissism but quite often it discussed relationships that failed early on...dating scenarios in which the narcissist would get bored and sabotage the relationship in its early stages. And that scenario just did not resonate for me because I did more than just date my N...I married him, built a beautiful first home with him in my 30's, had my first (and only) child with him, advanced my career path with him...and had many, many beautiful moments with him...until years later (maybe 8 or 9) when the real crazymaking moments began to overtake the good ones and the pathology began to emerge. Even now, reading your blog, it is quite clear how manipulative and anger-inducing N's can be but it is less often that people seem to write about HOW subtle that narcissism can play out...how layered and complicated it is...especially when the N is your child's parent and you want to show them respect and be smart about the relationship that develops between the N and his/her child. Thing is, my N is high-functioning and covert and likeable...THAT is why loving a N is so destructive for the empathetic partner...they 'seem' so amazingly sincere (and perhaps they are with you at first) even nurturing...full of compliments and support but over time their interest in you wanes without you even realizing it and it is so, so subtle how this happens that by the time the N is 'chatting' up another woman, or selling your vehicle off without asking for your permission, or attempting to hide large sums of money from you you are reeling from shock...devastated...how could this happen?...how did I get here?...How could you possibly treat me/other people this way? For me, seeking understanding was imminent and, thankfully, I found answers to my questions...not that those answers were necesarily comforting. But that's the kicker...there were moments where I really did wonder if he was 'evil', I worried about the distinction between NPD and sociopath, I still wonder how someone can be so amazingly astute and intellectual and still lack wisdom and empathy...how can you cry and not feel anything? How can you not love? Why is that even allowed?...how can you have amazingly tender moments with your wife and child and still leave your marriage and declare a silent war on your enemy (your wife) without her knowledge of said war? My head and my heart are at odds...but my head is winning the battle these days. And I have learned how to enjoy moments. And I am thankful for this blog.

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    1. Hi Anonymous! I'm so glad you came back! I felt a lump in my throat, even ten years later, after reading your comment. What you've written mirrors my experience and yes, this is why I take a less-vitriolic stance towards narcissism. When you live with someone who has a 'narcissistic personality' that appears (as far as you know) to be ambition, competence and success, it's heart-breaking watching that person self-destruct decades later. Decades after working so hard as a family to achieve our goals.

      The difference between my X and myself was MY comfort with having achieved our dreams, compared to his need to continue chasing dreams. It was about the chase, the fantasy---not the actuality. I think (my interpretation) that achieving our dream made life too boring and routine for him. There was no meaning in his relationships that sustained him. So whatever measure of joint goals that we achieved, reality PALED in comparison to his DREAMS. It simply could not measure up.

      While "I" was quite satisfied with our successes as a couple, he devalued ME for being satisfied. You see the problem? No matter what we achieve, or who we are, we will always be 'less than' the ideal.

      As far as wondering if my X was 'evil', well...that's part of our recovery process. Most people have a brief stay in Evil-Ville while integrating a shocking experience we never predicted would happen. Just don't get stuck there, that's my advice.

      I would like to use your comment as a prompt for a post, if you don't mind. It's been awhile since writing about my marriage. Many of my posts are from several years ago and the marvelous thing is that we Heal and we aren't as angry as we used to be. I laugh sometimes at my FURY and my SARCASM during a turbulent period in my life when I really didn't want to accept my fate. Oh...I can be a resistant one, that's for sure! But kicking and screaming, I accept reality as a much better place to live than fantasy.

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  18. "No matter what we achieve, or who we are, we will always be 'less than' the ideal."

    And that 'ideal' = the narcissist himself (or herself). Their ideal IS truly themselves. I realized, sadly, that my N truly began to believe that he was better than me, more important than me (or my family and friends, etc.) when he tried persuasively to reduce me to the full time cook, the cleaning lady, the 'nanny' (even though I was already the mother); when boundaries blurred and he did not see my things as mine anymore but his; when he would talk incessantly to me (about esoteric topics) seeking validation but would not listen; when he began to use possessive pronouns like "my office", "my house", etc., and the list goes on and on. I addressed the notion of being "average" with him one day...suggesting to him that his need for everything to be the best was destroying our family...that I revelled in "average"...being average was not offensive to me...and he became aggitated by the conversation...probably because he felt exposed and also because he felt compelled to defend his need to be better than others.

    I am happy to hear that "we heal and we aren't as angry as we used to be". I remember my attorney saying to me that it was like I had a post tramautic stress disorder...she didn't mean it clinically but her comment struck a chord in me and it IS like having a ptsd when you are in the throws of debate/argument/divorce with a N. It hasn't been long but I can feel my anger already beginning to fade...

    And, no, I do not mind if you "use [my] comment as a prompt for a post. I would be flattered. And I agree - "reality is a much better place to live than fantasy"...to live an authentic life without debilitating secrets and shame...honesty IS integrity!

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    1. Ha! We have something else in common here. Way back when I was going through my brutal education in NPD, I created a quote for the kitchen about "living an ORDINARY life". You'd think I'd just told my husbaNd he should be happy being a maggot. I did not understand his Win or Lose mentality. In his mind, if we weren't at the top of the pecking order, we were losers...

      I really did not understand my husband in many, many ways. Even though I pride myself in being easy to get along with, I never could figure him out until reading about personality disorders.

      I found your post again today (I've been sick in bed for WAY too long but am feeling much better). I'll start on a new post right away.

      Hugs,
      CZ

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  19. This is so true.

    Our family was just the same. My father even acted that way when I was trying to babysit my youngest sister - He'd refuse to participate, but complained about our kid-watching.He'd sabotage my attempts to convince her of a quiet activity by promising her immediate attention, thereby undermining my authority. Little sister loves me, but she quickly learned that if she cried & protested, she could get her daddy - or at least her favorite brother. When I suggested that he look after her, do his own paperwork without mom or teach a girl of almost seven to entertain herself, I'm made to look like the lazy one.

    Just look at this year's christmas gifts from:
    Father: Expensive silver necklace with a celtic motif. He's interested in celtic stuff, I hardly wear jewelry. Generic & overexpensive like most his gifts. He got me a nigh identical necklace last year.
    Mother: Fifteen Euro tea mug with a tea sieve, a subtly different one for each sister, with a print of a girl in a kimono. Requires her to know that we love loose tea & japanese cartoons and each sister's preferred level of girlyness. Mine, remarkably, has pretty flower prints, but not pink ones like my sister's. She says the cute print of a girl with a bob of dark hair reminded her of me. I use it almost every day.

    That sounds like a silly/frivolous complaint/comparison, but this stuff adds up... and of course, when big sister works out that dad just wants to buy/impress her, when she turns 20 and stops asking for expensive shit, and is therefore less than pleased, she gets called ungrateful, he'll buy her things she never asked him for and at the slightest irritation/ anger, he turns & says "I wasted this much money on you, you owe me for that!"- and that's where I realize the fundamental difference between my parents: Mom might be guilty of parroting father's "gratefulness BS", but not once did she hold something SHE gave me against me. If something will help me, she won't think twice about giving it to me, and that's a deep love I'm not sure I ever felt.

    Thank you for sharing this story. I will now go appreciate my mom some. She wasn't a perfect person, but she knows that, and for all my father damaged me, it's thanks to her that I know love. She tries. She cares. That's all I freakin ask, and more than can be taken for granted..

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    1. Such a beautiful story, Kendrix. Thank you so much for sharing that. You really understood the point I was trying to make about Ns (needs) and Ws (wants). I especially loved reading about your mother's tea mugs---each one particular to her daughter. That says she "sees" you and "knows" you and that you are worthy of her time and attention. It's so important for us to know a parent recognizes our individuality and loves us for being ourselves.

      Hugs,
      CZ

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